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Post by voodoo on Dec 7, 2023 11:59:23 GMT -5
hmmm multiple primarchs and superheavies eh? guess I should have brought a better list lol Makes me rethink automatically shelving Magnus for this one, lol.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 7, 2023 12:14:09 GMT -5
If you think a guard superheavy is an optimal choice, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you Hmmm didn't you make goonhammer with that list? Lol
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Post by Nick Gorrie on Dec 7, 2023 12:29:19 GMT -5
I just removed angron from my list
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Post by raceygaming on Dec 7, 2023 13:40:40 GMT -5
If you think a guard superheavy is an optimal choice, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you we are talking about the banesword right? the 480 pt unit that averages 4.5 dead terminators or 17 wounds from a knight a turn? I hope he brings 2 of them
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Post by ohgodsnakes on Dec 7, 2023 13:57:11 GMT -5
If you think a guard superheavy is an optimal choice, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you Hmmm didn't you make goonhammer with that list? Lol Yup, only won because of the list, cause I suuuuuuck at Warhammer haha. š This list trades out a unit of sentinels, the enginseer and some infantry for an exterminator and a basilisk. If I really wanted to spend points better, I would do another Demolisher, exterminator, and creed instead of the banesword. More damage, more wounds, more board control, more utility. Guard is the 4th worst faction in the game ATM. The banesword is not some secret tech, it's just an ok superheavy that trades ok into certain units. And this time, I can't even heal it or give it an invul!
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Post by mrmanstory on Dec 7, 2023 14:04:39 GMT -5
Iām excited for my Mortarion to do nothing except send chills down peoples spines! Heās just okay
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Post by zachman599 on Dec 7, 2023 14:39:31 GMT -5
Alright, I'm just gonna comment here as TO in hopes that it'll stop the arguing. I have been looking at the lists, and I have asked people to change their lists if I thought they were too much. We can discuss in circles about primarchs and Lords of War, but ultimately you have to look at the rest of the list as well, among other things. Mortarion, Magnus, the Lion and Angron may be competitive choices, but they don't make a competitive list alone. Mortarion is framed by DG who are just ok right now, Magnus is in a "critical mass" glass cannon faction where losing just enough makes the list stop working, Angron is fast and killy but won't steal games alone without the correct list to support him and the Lion is strong but also inefficient and rarely played at top levels. Guilliman doesn't factor in because dataslate rules changes made him significantly worse. And if we want to talk LoW's then sure, the Banesword kills 4.5 termies or 17 wounds on a knight (or 14 if they rotate shields) but the Banesword also costs 480 pts, which is in the knight range and roughly triple the ppm for the 4.5 terminators. Are we gonna argue Knights of any flavour aren't allowed because they're Super-heavies? Cuz both flavours of knights are hovering in the low to mid 40% range and are taking 1 Knight at most. In the end, most big things in this game are inefficient, and made good by the list surrounding them, which is why I'm not just looking at the models in a vacuum when I'm judging a list. Ultimately, I don't want to bar people from taking their cool centerpiece models because the big centerpiece models are why I buy into most armies. And if I think that an army with one of these models is a problem, I'll ask that person to change their list. That's being said, if y'all want to adjust your list to account for the big models, by all means, list lock is 9am on Saturday, so you have till then to settle on a list, though I'll also be checking your list if it changes.
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Post by nekekami on Dec 7, 2023 16:03:06 GMT -5
See, I hate this argument. As a community we took away the incentive of looking at what everyone else across the internet was doing by changing how we organize things. By not playing for money, we put forward a more community-first mindset to our games. So when I see people referencing things like win rates by global percentages, and numbered rankings, I just fucking roll my eyes. The end point argument is that we as veterans of the game, know what we can and can't do, and what we should and shouldn't do - when a Tournament is listed as 'New Player Friendly' and I see lists that have been at our regular tournaments, or I see skew lists of any sort - yeah, that includes Knights - I have to ask what the point is.
To me, a new player isn't going to have the resources to deal with multiple super-heavies, or have the breadth of knowledge to be able to hang against three different Primarchs, regardless of how 'good' something is or isn't. The idea of putting these labels on things is to keep the community in mind, and while yes, we're all part of that, and your own enjoyment is just as valid as everyone else's, just keep in mind that if this is someone's first tournament, maybe even some of their first games of 40k ever, that what you all bring to the table is going to influence their future decision in how they approach this hobby.
We can endlessly debate points, percentages, averages, and everything else literally any other time. You can bring out all your fun toys literally any time you sit down at a table to play, but just try to keep the ultimate goal in mind when you do. If one tournament is for the new people in the community at a new place, maybe put the kid gloves on for a day and remember what your first few games were like.
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Post by Casper on Dec 7, 2023 16:16:29 GMT -5
Signed up and put my list together! I haven't really been able to play any games since the launch tournament. So, here's hoping I remember at least some of my rules!
As a new player I'll through my thoughts in. Warhammer is a complex enough game that it honestly doesn't matter what I play against. Chances are experience is going to carry people through. I like Primarchs, centerpieces models and I think they should be brought. Angron leading WE or Magnus in TS - yeah! Sure they are a little more complex but they're the primarchs!
What I dont like is stuff thats not in the general index/codex of the faction. I can try to read all the faction info prior to playing them to get at least some understanding of how they play. But, when you get into the forgeworld or legends stuff - it feels like another issue.
Knights are unique but should be allowed. My own personal thoughts is they play so differently to regular games that it feels like you're not playing the same game. But - they are legal and will draw certain players. My roommate who is interested in 40k is only interested in Knights because they are big and badass - why should that player be punished for playing a legal list? That's a design issue from GW and not at a tournament level.
Ps: I should say that I may be biased since I'm bringing Belakor, GUO and Shalaxi. One because he's mandatory for the army (sort of like Magnus), the other cause he's freshly painted and the last to deal with other big things - like Knights... because the existence of them skews anti-tank being a necessary evil.
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Post by mrmanstory on Dec 7, 2023 16:20:42 GMT -5
Does that argument still apply if someoneās first army is knights? Are we going to exclude them from the new player tournament because they just happen to have picked knights?
From experience my first tournament at nexus a couple years ago I played against magnus and a tau tiger shark and I never went āwell it sure feels like I have no chance nowā I saw it as a challenge. Yāknow I didnāt even really have anti tank weapons either aside from a couple entropy cannons. It made me realize that those models exist and you kinda have to plan for them.
I get the whole putting the kids gloves on thing Iām playing death guard and brought blightlords those things are straight up butt cheeks but I took them to balance the list out.
At the end of the day it is up to the TO to decide what he thinks is fair at the tournament or not..
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Post by nekekami on Dec 7, 2023 16:57:22 GMT -5
Does that argument still apply if someoneās first army is knights? Are we going to exclude them from the new player tournament because they just happen to have picked knights? I'm not making an argument about what people should/shouldn't bring in a list at all, I'm just reminding people why we do things the way we do. A lot of you weren't around for the time when 40k completely died here. Nobody played. Nobody wanted to play, because the competetive, WAAC mindset killed our little community until Shannon and some of the others looked to change that. And that mindset wasn't just about what you put on the table to play the game either, but also how you played the game. All I care about is people showing up and having fun. That's why I said that your enjoyment is valid too, because we're all here to have fun, nobody is out to ruin someone's day. And if everyone keeps that in mind then there wouldn't be any reason to have an argument in the first place.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 7, 2023 17:44:33 GMT -5
Hmmm didn't you make goonhammer with that list? Lol Yup, only won because of the list, cause I suuuuuuck at Warhammer haha. š This list trades out a unit of sentinels, the enginseer and some infantry for an exterminator and a basilisk. If I really wanted to spend points better, I would do another Demolisher, exterminator, and creed instead of the banesword. More damage, more wounds, more board control, more utility. Guard is the 4th worst faction in the game ATM. The banesword is not some secret tech, it's just an ok superheavy that trades ok into certain units. And this time, I can't even heal it or give it an invul! lol... I was just teasing you man... I know you're good at this game and that's why you won. I honestly don't care what people are bringing... and I'm not going to change my list based on whatever someone else brings. I'm not involved with this at all on the organizational level, so my opinions on what is friendly or not doesn't matter one bit! Bring on your primarchs! My screamer killer will eat them all!
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Post by zachman599 on Dec 7, 2023 17:52:29 GMT -5
My screamer killer will eat them all! Not if my Castigator gets him first :b
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Post by Josh McFarlane on Dec 7, 2023 19:08:03 GMT -5
Hey guys,
Iām brand new, and donāt know the history here, but just to add to the convo. Iām fine to shelve Magnus if thatās the consensus, although this is my first army and first tourney - Iām super excited to play him cause heās a cool model and very much a centrepiece of my army. I have enough models to field a list without him tho.
Iām just here to gain experience, play a cool game with some BA toys, meet some people, and have some fun. I say bring on whatever people *want* to play!
Iāll be watching to see if things needs to shift. Either way, excited to meet you all and roll some dice.
Cheers! Josh
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 7, 2023 19:17:46 GMT -5
Hey Josh... if you're a new player playing your first tournament, I think you should bring exactly what you want, and what you think is cool.
This discussion went WAY off the rails, and I've been hovering over the "delete" button on some of these posts already, as I don't want this to detract from all the hard work Zach is doing organizing all of this... but don't worry about that, it's all online drama, which should NOT affect your experience!
You have a cool list and you want to have fun - that is awesome and is exactly what I think Zach is aiming for - that new players have a great time in a friendly environment!
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