magic. Could it be the down fall of 8th.

Would it help if we sticky a strand and tackle section by section components of the system we would like to see tweeeked ie
Magic
Terrain
Tlos
Steadfast
Laser guided artillery
For me those are the main areas

I find I prefer trying for minor tweaks or using things that have worked before.
Ie 4th and 3rd add +2 2nd and 1st +1
For ex

something to consider:

A Slaan BSB with cupped hands (redirect all miscasts to the enemy), loremaster of life, and remove all six's from an enemy caster = 395 points

easily able to be taken in 2k, and probably one of the most extreme casters you can face... even if they're nice and drop one of the options above, they can still add in the one that adds a power dice every turn.....

.....except of course that you have 400 points less of an army to fight it, 400 less points of models to lose to dwellers... etc. etc.

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now I agree with you wholeheartedly about the broken, unbalanced mess that the magic system is in 8th. Pretty much every forum I visit says the exact same thing - it's broken, bad for the game, resulted in lower numbers everywhere for fantasy players (to the point in some areas they've actually totally lost ALL their fantasy players in their club!)

Just prior to 8th edition, our fantasy tournaments were regularly full... how have they been the last two years?

What is the thing that people complain about the most? the magic phase.... the biggest culprit of the magic phase in my experience has been dwellers (it's particularly nasty given it's combo with throne of vines, negating all the miscast risk)... but to a lesser extent it's most of the level 6 spells in the BRB lores....

I've yet to have a unit purple sunned off the table, but I'm sure it happens! (most people I've seen who have the option of taking life, take it... it's just that good!)

Strangely enough, as the army books come out, I've noticed that the level six spells aren't nearly as powerful (the ogre one seriously I don't take if I roll it... not because it's nasty... it's actually a really bad spell... lol)

let's look at the other "uber spells" that have come out so far in the new books:

tomb Kings - a vortex (that can misfire and hit yourself) that causes a S4 hit to things it passes over... still allowing all your saves, etc. Not really much to worry about there... and 15+ to cast? geez, no thanks! And you're risking your Heirophant (and entire army) attempting it???

VC - vortex (misfire as above) that cases D6 S3 hits on a unit it passes over... oh, you don't get any armor saves... yeah, so I might worst case scenario lose 6 wounds against normal troops? you know, if you cast it at 15+ and risk blowing up your general? Statistically this spell will do on average 2 wounds to a unit of empire state troops... bet they're terrified for this one to go off!

Ogres - vortex (misfire lets the opponent place it anywhere they want... on ANY of your units they want... let that nastiness sink in) and you have to do an initiative test if it hits... but unlike purple sun, you take a S3 hit if you pass or a S7 if you fail... all saves as per normal (although if you're lucky and get the S7 on something it's probably not going to get an armor save)...

Orcs and goblins: (probably the best of the bunch)

Bad moon - yeah this CAN be nasty, but it's pretty random distance, and it targets a random ability, so relying on it is fairly difficult... it's take a wound, no saves....

foot of gork - yep, also can be nasty, but it always scatters, and causes S6 hits but allows saves (if you have them of course)... if the caster wants to buff it up, 50% of the time it will keep going... but if you roll a 1....


....lets compare with the book lores:

Fire: a template that causes S4 hits... ho hum....

Beasts: transforms your wizard into a dragon or other huge monster... potentially very powerful

Metal: final transformation - 5+ to kill each model in the unit... 1/3 of your unit is gone with no saves of any kind and makes every unit around it test for stupidity

Light: movement is doubled, +1 attacks and ASF... can affect one unit or boosted for ALL units in range...

Life: dwellers... strength test or die with no saves of any kind... every model in the unit... even characters... no look out sir... probably the most hated spell in all of warhammer

heavens: chain lighting D6 S6 hits that can bounce to another unit on a 3+ and can keep bouncing... foot of gork power level it seems (but doesn't scatter!)

shadow: pit of shades is only the level five.... but deserves dishonorable mention too - initiative test or die.... mindrazor makes your strength equal to your leadership... not so tough on skeletons (but funny) but on elves this is absolutely devastating if you're running spears (especially high elves)

death: purple sun... basically pit of shades... initiative test or die...

.... so the WORST spell of the bunch (fire) is pretty much equal with the tomb kings level 6... the top hated three (dwellers, pit, purple sun) are likely to make the game extremely unfun for your opponent and has the tactical skill involved of throwing six dice and HOPING FOR A MISCAST?? yeah... okay.... and if you're running life you can ignore it on a 2+ (or worse if you're lizards just redirect it onto your opponent!)

So here's what I see as a number of options:

1. continue as is, knowing that every time you uber spell a unit (particularly if there's absolutely no risk to you for doing so) you are making an opponent have a bad game.

2. no level 6 spells of any kind (sort of defeats the balancing that has been going on with the new books, which I don't think are that bad... however it's not like I'm going to risk my general on any of those in any of the armies I run!)

3. no level 6 spells in the BRB

4. allow saves on the level six spell effects such as dwellers, pit, purple sun... etc. etc.

5. allow look out sir to be taken against the whole insta-death thing.

6. do not allow your caster to add their level to the casting value of a spell, making these spells harder to get off.

.....or some combination of the above.....


Now I know that there's a counter argument that says that if you go to an out of town tournament, you'll just run into all this magic anyways, so you have to know how to handle it... yeah well my chances of actually going to an out of town tournament to get throne + 6 dice dwellers three games in a row is pretty slim to be honest....

and I'm tired of being forced to bring a level 4 in every army list I have because I'm so worried about the magic phase just ending the game.... I'd really like not having to invest in a slaughtermaster + scroll caddy + hellheart just to survive magic! (that's like 500+ points minimum to just have magic defense!)

thoughts?

why not just auto miscast for using one of the above designated super spells. No throne of vines or pass off, if you do it you risk death. This adds the tactics I think they were going for when they made high casting values and irresistible cause miscast. I think you are suppose to miscast to get these things off. This means you risk you level 4 wizard to get this game changer.

Based on our previous discussions and experience to date, my view is that getting rid of the worst offending spells is the best, which generally consists of the #6 spells (or dreaded 13th for skaven). We can initially limit it to the CRB 8 main lores and anything super nasty (dreaded 13th qualifies) in other books. If someone rolls a #6 when choosing spells, then they simply get to choose another spell. Note that the ETC and other tournies have used look out, sirs and other means but they also have additional limits on PD generation and use (i.e. no more than 5 dice at any spell). I don't want to head down the ETC path since it ends up being fairly complex with rules and exceptions for each and every army in additional to more general restrictions. After we try that for a while we can then further discuss to see if we want any additional tweaks. How be we aim for this Thursday as the kick off date for the new and improved magic impact on fantasy?

So, no #6 - unless, of course, we are eating at Saigon Delight in which case the #6 is the preferred option ;D