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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2019 20:05:48 GMT -5
A thread where-in I blather and ask questions about Orks.
Today's question; "Why would one use Mad Doc Grotsnik instead of a Painboy?"
A comment was made, this afternoon, which got me taking a closer look at Doc's Codex entry and, well, it does not look good. It seems, for the most part, that he has traded a re-roll when trying to heal for a personal 5up invul. Aside from that, an addition toughness and the fact that his Feel No Pain AoE can stack with a regular Painboy's ability, I do not see any particular benefit to using him instead of a regular Painboy. Especially considering the points difference.
I could see someone using him for Lore reasons, but I am missing the point, otherwise. *shrugs*
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Post by Typhus on May 5, 2019 2:55:29 GMT -5
From an Ork tactics discussion: "He is a back up warboss. Charging in your opponent's charge phase can be game changing if you set it up properly. The T5 and 5++ makes him surprisingly durable as well. He gives fnp to every ork regardless of clan."
He has incredible stats for a Painboy, and some cute tricks up his sleeve - One Scalpel Short of a Medpack forces him to declare charges "at the start of the Charge Phase" - allowing him to charge during your opponent's turn. Great if you're combining a few Clans, as is typical for competitive Orks, and would like for them all to benefit from a Painboy aura.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 5:52:31 GMT -5
Ohhhhhh... Charging in the opponent's turn IS a big difference, yeah. It still seems like this could be as detrimental as it is helpful. I suppose that is a decent risk/reward situation. Also, given that he needs to be away from allies means his charge should not go off until he is close to the last remaining Ork. This sounds great, on paper, but I am leery of the practical applications. My mind may change, should I see him in action.
Cross-clan healing/etc? *gets out Codex* Oooooooookay, I see it now. His ability does not include the <clan> tag.
Can named units be counted as leaders? Is that how he is a backup warboss? This confuses me, here. Battlescribe is giving regular Painboyz and Meks the "Warlord" check box, as well. Could they be substitute leaders, as well? Is it any character model that can do this? (Runtherds also seem capable of doing this)
Personally (and I will not poo-poo anyone who feels otherwise) I would still take the regular Painboy. Cheaper, should not need the invul save (due to being at the back ranks) and has a better heal. If Doc's FNP was 5up, I would feel differently (for example)
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 5, 2019 6:33:28 GMT -5
yep you can choose any of your characters to be your warlord unless there's a special restriction (like genestealer cult) that forces you to choose a certain model to be warlord.
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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2019 9:21:53 GMT -5
Well now that is certainly interesting. I kind of like this, as it affords one the opportunity to get a very flavourful list going.
I should, likely, try and find a more comprehensive set of rules than the .pdf update thing. I still have no idea about detachment rules and a lot of others. Were it not for Battlescribe, I would have no idea...
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Post by Typhus on May 5, 2019 18:10:24 GMT -5
"Backup Warboss" in the sense that he has the stats of a Warboss, but all the utility of a Painboy.
He can also provide himself his own "Waaagh!" aura because "One Scalpel Short of a Medpack" allows him to charge even if he advanced.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2019 12:49:53 GMT -5
Orks are just shit. Compared to everything I have faced, Orks are useless.
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Post by raceygaming on May 18, 2019 17:33:16 GMT -5
Hey would be happy to look over your list for area's that the orks can be improved. I know they can feel pretty unforgiving at the start as they can be get very squishy, if you miss something. Just let me know, you can PM or just post ideas here.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 18, 2019 17:41:18 GMT -5
Orks are just shit. Compared to everything I have faced, Orks are useless. Well Jordan came in 4th today with Orks... it may be just the list needs some adjustments
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Post by Malarks on May 26, 2019 14:30:29 GMT -5
Provided I have the CP, is there anything preventing me from deepstriking as many units as I can afford to?
From my umderstanding, from having plaued as little as I have and having farted around youtube videos and forums for as little time as I ha e, I should just be deepstriking and da jumping my army and not even bothering tocwalk them at all.
Time to whip up a 3rd wierdboy.
8CP means 4 deepstrikes which means at least two squads of boys and some nobz which leaves HQ and the rest of the elites for da jump.
I just do not know how to get across the board and then engage a relatively fresh army with an army that has been whittled down to less than half its numbers from running across the board.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 26, 2019 15:46:21 GMT -5
I'd save 3 CP to bring a depleted squad back behind your enemy at full strength... that seemed pretty sweet!
Due to the reserves rules you must have at minimum 1/2 your army (units and points) on the board at the start of the game. Da Jump however doesn't count against this (as you start on the table and... well... jump!)
psyker rules say a spell can only be attempted 1/turn though, so I wouldn't necessarily jump everything.
Lootas with grot shields seem to be a pretty powerful combo... but Jordan can definitely give better advice than me!
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Post by Typhus on May 26, 2019 16:13:56 GMT -5
Orks are very CP intensive. I would definitely recommend fielding 2-3 Battalions every game.
Tellyporta is quite good. Da Jump is amazing. Aside from that, playing Evil Sunz and advancing every turn (8-13" movement per unit) underneath a Kustom Force Field and with a Painboy nearby is a solid plan - particularly when you have already thrown a unit of 30-40 Boyz into their lines, and softened them up with Lootas.
Good luck!
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Post by Malarks on May 26, 2019 16:36:38 GMT -5
It just feels so cheesy to min/max lists for CP and having to rely so heavily on bypassing movement all together makes me feel uneasy about the game. I think I could forgo command rerolls, though. With such slim success margins, compared to other lists, there is almost no point in wasting CP on rerolls. I need to familiarize myself with the various strategems, having not looked too closely at most.
I really ought to have invested more time in to learning the game before investing money in an army that is so expensive to build.
Anyway, after fighting with my tablet for longer than I want to admit, I finally got my list posted over in the army section.
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Post by question on May 27, 2019 6:18:54 GMT -5
Yeah, min/max does feel cheesy. You don't have to bypass movement, but trukks and battlewagons can get expensive quickly. Unfortunately ANY horde army will always be expensive. Thanks to Mike's discount bins, dollar stores, and thrift stores you can orc-ify old models and cheap toy finds to reduce costs. And you can fight a war of attrition which elite armies just don't have the bodies to support. Orcs require a certain kind of mindset (maniacal?) and a sense of humour to play. After 30 years of bouncing mine around tables, I have found they play like no other army. Stick with it, practice, and you should eventually find the right way for you (like throwing knives: finicky, not for everybody, but rewarding when you get the hang of it). If not, when you settle on another army more suited to you, start using the Trade Depot. A lot of us have reduced our mistakes/losses through there.
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Post by ohgodsnakes on May 27, 2019 7:58:50 GMT -5
I wouldn't call setting your detachments up to give you more "fun points" (CP) min-maxing necessarily. Stratagems are at the very core of 8th Edition. Often times, an armies power level relies heavily on the stratagems in their book, and Orks have some amazing stratagems. Things like Grot Shield, More Dakka!, Ramming Speed, and Showin' Off are all super good, but require CP to fuel them.
You have enough troops and HQ's in the list you posted yesterday to get two battalions, popping you up to 13 command points. Jordan often runs triple battalion for 18. I wouldn't shy away from bringing more command points, especially with Orks, as that's where they really shine.
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