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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 15, 2019 11:29:55 GMT -5
Hey everyone,
Just wondering about some feedback from our tourney - specifically looking for:
1. mission feedback - did you like the different ones this year? 2. layout feedback - we jammed a lot more people/tables than normal (our biggest attendance at a 1v.1 tourney ever!) did the layout work for you? 3. anything else that you feel would be important for us to know to make things even better next time!
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Post by trantos01 on Dec 15, 2019 13:00:20 GMT -5
The present-holding mission can be kind of unbalanced. You have each-non character unit gets one at the start and you can simply pick up the dropped gift. That means that somebody with more units at the start of the mission has an inherent advantage. Also if a multiple model unit can hold multiple presents there is no real incentive to leave your 'fortifications'. I was fighting another gunline army and we just sat on opposite ends of the table picking up gift from the fallen with HQs etc.
If there was a chance of the gift being destroyed on dropping from a shooting attack etc, then there would be the incentive for non-melee specced lists to actually leave safety in order to grab the enemy's gifts.
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Post by Typhus on Dec 15, 2019 14:47:58 GMT -5
1. While I like progressive scoring conceptually, I think the amount of points scored should be smaller so that the player who is behind has a chance of catching up. In regards to the final mission, there were stories of games at 8-2 or 6-1 on the first turn, which can be hard to come back from.
I also prefer secondary objectives that both players can achieve. "Retrieve a present in the Fight phase" is more fun to me than "hold more table quarters than your opponent". Zero sum secondaries essentially just punish the losing player even further.
I also feel the missions were a little too horde-centric. I assumed that the presents mission would be a KP-based reward for playing elite armies, but it was actually very punishing for elite armies as they started with fewer presents and could hold less.
All criticism aside, I thought this year's missions were a big improvement over last year's - Santa's Workshop, in particular, was one I really didn't care for.
2. I thought it was fine, didn't feel particularly cramped or anything.
3. Give me a copy of Soul Wars.
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Post by magnus on Dec 15, 2019 18:01:15 GMT -5
1. While I like progressive scoring conceptually, I think the amount of points scored should be smaller so that the player who is behind has a chance of catching up. In regards to the final mission, there were stories of games at 8-2 or 6-1 on the first turn, which can be hard to come back from. I also prefer secondary objectives that both players can achieve. "Retrieve a present in the Fight phase" is more fun to me than "hold more table quarters than your opponent". Zero sum secondaries essentially just punish the losing player even further. I also feel the missions were a little too horde-centric. I assumed that the presents mission would be a KP-based reward for playing elite armies, but it was actually very punishing for elite armies as they started with fewer presents and could hold less. All criticism aside, I thought this year's missions were a big improvement over last year's - Santa's Workshop, in particular, was one I really didn't care for. 2. I thought it was fine, didn't feel particularly cramped or anything. 3. Give me a copy of Soul Wars. I have to agree with you on the 1st and 3rd points. While I do enjoy the amount of people that came out it was a bit tight in some spots, table 14 and 15 were a little close together so that it was hard to move around without bumping the other people playing there game. Other than those two tables it was great with enough space to move around.
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Post by MagnusTheThicc on Dec 15, 2019 19:12:32 GMT -5
I will throw my lot in with my fellow compatriots above in regards to the scoring and missions being a little horde friendly. It was pretty tight but nothing of issue for myself, it was nice to see so many people from the community come out. And I too would like a copy of Soul Wars please and thank you.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 15, 2019 19:25:53 GMT -5
will point out, no hordes made the top three...
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Dec 15, 2019 20:34:09 GMT -5
1. I did not attend last year's so I have nothing to compare them to, but I think the missions all disproportionately favoured a very specific army list with a high model and unit count. Mission 1 was just progressive objectives but sometimes you lose a model (didn't even come up in my game). Mission 2 was essentially an automatic victory for me because I had too many more squads than my opponent, who brought a core of very expensive characters and thus had few presents while I had many. Mission 3 seems like it would be nearly impossible to win without having a substantially large infantry force since you have a ton of very large progressive scoring objectives, and ownership is determined by model count.
2. I didn't have to play on any of the side tables, the middle ones all seemed okay for space. No more cramped than tag teams felt.
3. I think the secret santa event at the end is great, but having a $200 retail box in the yankee swap feels like a recreation of the office episode "Christmas Party". Maybe that was the point though? Also a yankee swap works better, I think, if players are required to unwrap their gifts as they grab them since it gives a lot more opportunities to steal something you actually want!
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Post by raceygaming on Dec 15, 2019 21:10:13 GMT -5
1. mission feedback - did you like the different ones this year?
Mission 1 - I enjoyed Krampus, it made for some tense moments where I had to weight the 16% chance of losing a commander or ghostkeel trying to steal the objective over scoring points for the turn, sometimes you had to risk it which was cool. Also to the mission favor literally 2 minutes before the round started the T.O did say " maybe don't use large or expensive models to take objects just in case".
Mission 2 - I personally like this twist on kill points. At the start of the game you knew who had the present lead and it made the person starting down have to take the initiative. I had 18 to start and still got beaten by lukas who had like 7? It was refreshing to have a KP style mission that didn't punish MSU armies right off the bat, while still leaving the door open for an elite army to come and take an obscene number off you my making you drop them or just killing you.
Mission 3 - I think there was a little confusion on this mission. I know we played each piece of terrain was worth 1 and taking a piece from the enemy was worth 2. so Chris and I had a nice back and forth of 7-7, 9-9 and then 7-11 before the end. I did hear some people playing 1 pt if you held any terrain and 2 pts for taking a piece off the opponent for a max of 3 pts a turn so they were a lot more close?...not sure which was correct, I know some times I speed read to get into game faster which isn't a good habit. While I enjoy this mission I think it might have been better to have 4-8 objective markers that were the goal since some tables have kinda crazy terrain. Ours had 10 and were pretty evenly balanced per side and in the middle but I could see the table really affecting this game.
2. layout feedback - we jammed a lot more people/tables than normal (our biggest attendance at a 1v.1 tourney ever!) did the layout work for you?
I didn't play on any of the side on side touching tables but the difference between 40-44 was not noticeable for me. If we did do this to open up more space I would only thing that maybe a little bit of planning could go into it so that the touching tabled were not hammer and anvil or spear head assault as that could be awkward for the touching short edges? Also while I love that it comes with terrain I think we could retire the APOC table unless we REALLY need it. In terms of the future i think the smaller tournaments could hold these larger numbers but I think with clubs and all the display boards and armies being bigger 40 might be a hard cap but for "Crusade of X" or others the "feel" of 36- 48 is probably the same.
3. anything else that you feel would be important for us to know to make things even better next time!
I enjoyed the present swap this year and think there were a lot of really generous people who went over the $10 limit which was awesome. Also amazing that Nexus slid in a crazy prize to get the stealing ramping up. Also as always I think it is totally fair to do the reverse placement order.
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Post by question on Dec 16, 2019 8:34:09 GMT -5
My 2 cents:
1. I enjoyed all 3 scenarios. They were fun and while not every scenario worked well for a small unit / model count army, I accept this as a reality of life. You cannot balance every scenario for all armies. Not a realistic expectation and we should not expect any TO to kill themselves trying to to work out this issue. (Hint: it's an impossibility so give it up.)
2. I only played on the left lane tables which were lucky enough to have decent space surrounding them. Overall though my subjective feeling was that we were a little overcrowded. Way too many for club champs with, as was previously observed, display boards to find space for.
3. The swap was a lot of fun. Perhaps order can alternate years, highest rank this year, lowest ranked next year. And the extra gift provided by Nexus certainly upped the ante for stealing. And traditionally, Yankee swaps DO require you to unwrap the gift upon selection precisely to promote "stealing". Overall, a very enjoyable day for the price.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Dec 16, 2019 11:30:38 GMT -5
I believe that the reason Mike donated such an expensive prize to the yankee swap and did reverse order, was so that the person who came in last in the tournament could get a super cool prize for their effort. First time Mike did that, and it was super generous and cool of him to do so.
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Post by Trickster Raven on Dec 16, 2019 13:25:37 GMT -5
I generally liked the missions, and think they'd be fine to play again. Although I do think a few minor tweaks might be needed. I really liked the krampus mission, although I don't think avoiding having a model eaten should be a secondary objective. I think secondaries work best for things you can control (at least somewhat) through tactical decisions rather than random chance. Also, we need to find a way for krampus to be on the table. Not a way for him to do anything, just being present (no pun intended) so we can bask in his awesomeness. The present mission was fun, but I think it needs a slight rebalance. Maybe if each player starts with a set number of presents and chooses how they distribute them? Or if each player starts with a set number and the rest are scattered across the board. Another idea: no one starts with a present and they're all scrambling to collect the ones scattered across the board. Maybe the red gobbo fired them from his gift cannon, but his aim is terrible. I didn't find having more people down there to be a problem. I was horse from shouting by the end, but that's normal for tournaments. I liked the swap. It was incredibly generous of Mike to add soul wars. I just wish I hadn't opened it when I did
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Post by cmcd on Dec 16, 2019 16:43:03 GMT -5
I have missed the last 2 Secret Santa's, so it I found that this tournament as nice ish.
1. mission feedback - did you like the different ones this year?
a. Krampus. Loved it. The thought of shoving a Canoptek Spyder into a sack brought me joy, on a happy day. Being able to place the objectives provided the players with the type of game they wanted to play. For me I had a single Outrider Detachment so I placed my objectives closer to my opponent. Where he had more a Battalion and a Flyer wing, and also placed his objectives near his deployment zone. The only mission oriented issue i felt was maybe it would have been better to have the scoring at the end of each battle round. This would give an advantage to going second. Cause going first could be very devastating.
b. Presents!!. Loved it more. I had eight units which started with presents. Reading the mission my first thought was this mission is designed to get up close and personal with your opponents army. After all, you're here to give presents. Even if i wasn't playing a Charge/Assault phase army. I would have enjoyed the secondary objectives of taking objectives in close combat. In the end it came down to My Opponent charging a unit of scarabs with Shadowsun to steal one objective and for me to fail my 6+ save right at Dice Down. That move essentially tied the game and allowed him to score more secondaries. I liked that each unit could hold more that one present depending on number of models. For this mission if I were to change something It would either be Characters could take objectives from their own units. or chances that the presents will explode. Either from being shot (like Jonathon mentioned) or "give" them to your opponent.
c. Christmas Trees. Jordan talked about this one already. This mission was practically a read the mission first (as you should always do) and deploy properly. This mission has inspired me to change the Subterranean Assault mission for clubs (Shannon pending). Overall a standard mission. and fun.
2. layout feedback - we jammed a lot more people/tables than normal (our biggest attendance at a 1v.1 tourney ever!) did the layout work for you?
Even though it was secret Santa, I was initially frustrated with finding out that there were more than 40 people playing. I dont do well in tight crowds and due to my disability I had a bad experience 2 years ago at the team tournament, when we had 14 teams of 4. I lucked out however. I played in two corners and did not find it that bad. My third game was on a table by itself. My back aint what it used to be and I tend to sit when its not my turn. With the added tables I found it hard to sit, and i did find it tight to the adjacent tables. For clubs it might be hard with display boards and placing dead units on trays. I am happy we had new players to the tournament, and would gladly sit out and help organize if it meant they had a change to play vice me being overwhelmed by the number of people. I also think that if your going to include 44+ players to identify that before the day of. For me this would help me determine if I would show up by Registering, or allow me to prepare myself for a loud / busy day.
3. anything else that you feel would be important for us to know to make things even better next time!
a. I did not appreciate the Soul wars box at the gift exchange. I tried to keep my present to the $15 max. I Love that it was designed to give the person who came last a big present, Love that. If I new I could bring something more I would have. Also opening the present in front of everyone would be more fun even if it takes more time. maybe have a minimum $10 present instead of a max. that would allow players a better opportunity to bring something they want to give.
b. An hour for lunch felt good. and the games felt well spaced out.
c. Although none of the armies I fought were Naughty IMO. I did feel that some were closer to the Naughty than the nice. Maybe submitting army lists before hand so that they are all approved by the TO would allow players confidence that its a fair list. If it is supposed to be a fun easy tournament. Maybe just allow 1 Battalion / detachment. IF anyone felt that my Canoptek Swarm was too much please let me know so I can claw it back next time.
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