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Post by Impulse on Mar 14, 2020 0:00:41 GMT -5
Nah I still get to reroll all fails with the rend of 1 because I buffed their save to 3+. So after rend, still succeed on a 4+ and no issues. I had to look up that rule a while back because of 40k rulings. I don't think there's any issues cause you can only reroll 1's to 3's. So anything with no rend, can reroll the 1's and 2's, succeed on 3's. They are some tanky dudes.
The 6+ FNP is the only protection against mortal wounds and yea they crumple. But then again what doesn't? I don't really play any top tier armies or lists, but I think its around the middle.
Lord arcanum saved a model every round, plus with the ride the winds aetheric was quite successful in moving about. The base also makes it much easier to fit a 9 inch bubble for sequitors. All in all, the point nerf to sequitors only really comes into effect when you spam sequitors, it's effectively the same price for 2 squads of sequitors and the lord arcanum general as lord arcanum dropped 20 points, sequitors went up 10, which I think is fair.
With the new seraphon and stuff maybe SCE are shifted further down, I haven't taken a huge look at their stuff admittedly. On paper SCE sound amazing and this one game they did well. I am excited to play em some more to get a better feel tho.
Skaven no doubt can wreck them but what can you really do against bells that do battleshock immune in a 13inch bubble as well as warplightning cannons that do up to 6 mortal wounds (no hit roll), potentially up to 12 with a buff from a solid 27 inch range? I don't think much can compete with that.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Mar 14, 2020 3:13:44 GMT -5
Sigmar doesn't have that problem... anymore. New books, I think, always use the new style of wording just like in 40k. Unfortunately it doesn't apply retroactively :/ It actually frustrates me to no end because it creates wonky holes in interactions that are hard to balance for AND it's totally backwards and unintuitive so people always find out mid-game when they're blindsided by it for the first time, resulting in an inevitable rules argument and having to look it up on the internet. Ugh. SCE have an annoying amount of that actually, for such a barebones army. Lord Arcanum 'healing' and Aetherwing movement both seem purpose-built to create rules confusion. Or the deep strike allegiance power and allies. Or Evocators and spell lores. I gotta stop this is becoming another rant ahaha. Impulse I don't know what to tell you. You've got a 500 point unit backed up by 400 points of characters with a mountain of vulnerabilities that any decent tome will treat as a speed bump. Honestly even SCE can melt your Sequitor block if using the meta toys like Vanguard-Raptors and Evocators. I could start breaking out the hard maths to back that up but given you're prepared to make blanket judgements about a battletome's place in the meta based on your experience with them in a single game, I doubt anything I could possible say will change your opinion... for now. Play with them a bit more and I expect you'll be be more ready to pick up what I'm putting down haha. Anyway, best of luck in your games.
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Post by Impulse on Mar 14, 2020 15:20:27 GMT -5
440 pts + 120 pts + 220, so in total 780 pts, so yea it's quite a bit. With the support of the relictors, it goes up more but the relictors are more offensive pieces than anything. I am curious to think what could melt them. I'm sure anything that's top tier can melt them sure but in my meager local gaming experience, I can't think of anything that can melt this unit like what you're saying to the point where they are bottom tier.
I'm just extrapolating what little experience I have when I played with some of my other armies so apologies if I'm offending you. I just don't agree with your statement of garbage tier and I don't think there's an example of any unit that melts the buffed sequitors as quickly as you imply.
Anyways, I appreciate your input. Thank you for taking the time to share your opinion.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Mar 14, 2020 16:53:11 GMT -5
I'm not offended! We're just having a friendly disagreement. I'm not happy with my Stormcasts and you're happy with yours So I just want to briefly outline why I disagree with this notion of buffed Sequitors being very difficult to remove. Stuff dies in Sigmar, it's a rare unit indeed that can survive a slug fest with a hammer unit of equivalent points. So MATHS TIME!! The classic example would be Fyreslayers. Can have an equivalently sized block of twenty Hearthguard Berserkers for 400. For simplicity's sake we'll give them broadaxes so that we can compute rend rather than just piling on mortal wounds, although the mortals are probably better. Let's back them up with an Auric Runemaster for re-rolling ones and an Auric Runemaster for re-rolling wounds, and we'll assume the Runemaster is part of a Lords of the Lodge battalion which is pretty standard for Fyreslayers. That's 360 so we have a total of 760 points of guys, one fighting unit and two supporting heroes plus the requisite battalion. First, the block will fight at the start of the phase using the Hermdar CA (nearly all Fyreslayers will run Hermdar). You do not get to trigger your re-rolls because the Fyreslayers player has stacked the trigger with his attack landing first. I'm assuming in this scenario that he charged you (maybe he got the double or something), because let's be honest, you'd have to be crazy to charge a blob of pumped up HGBs with Sequitors. So swing number one is pushing you up to a 5+ save non-rerollable because they will activate their rend rune bringing them to -2 rend (if they get lucky it can go up to rend -3 but we'll say they don't). So their weapons have 2" range and 2 attacks a pop and they're on smaller bases, so I think they won't have that hard a time piling in to swing with the full 40 attacks, and each attack does D2. With re-rolls of 1 and re-rolling wounds, damage calculator tells me this does an average of about 37 damage to your unit. Your FNP shrugs 6 so that brings it down to 31 and your Lord Arcanum will use his heal to knock off another wound, so a flat 30. So 75% of the unit has been obliterated and now you can activate your re-rolls and retaliate. The critical thing here is that the save re-roll probably isn't even worth it at this point, because the Fyreslayers get to fight a whole additional time this phase because of their battalion. Even if the Fyreslayers didn't fight twice and basically guarantee the destruction of your unit, battleshock would do the rest. And this combo is extremely typical for a Fyreslayers army, not anything specially cooked up to wreck your Sequitors. Most Fyreslayers armies will use a variation of this exact setup. I'm also not a Fyreslayers player so this isn't as efficient as it could be if you asked a true expert how to deal with your Sequitors. Don't be surprised that the vast majority of tomes released since SCE have tools to disassemble your units efficiently. The SCE book is rapidly becoming one of the oldest in circulation, and it shows. Also I just realized I forgot to have the HBGs even throw their throwing axes. Not that it ended up mattering!
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Post by Impulse on Mar 14, 2020 22:22:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the example of a unit! I admittedly haven't played against fyreslayers as there isn't one in kingston atm. I don't even know anything about their rules. The fighting twice in one phase sounds pretty strong, particularly if it's done at the start of the phase as well.
Thanks for giving a concrete example, it really does help with fleshing out numbers when I can look at stats, compare them and be like. "Huh". Yea SCE battalions aren't great, that Fyreslayer one is fantastic.
I was actually talking with a friend and it seems like power creep, a lot more units are getting 4+ saves and 2 wounds, something that was characteristic of SCE. Now most battleline have it, would be nice to either give SCE another wound, or what I think would really separate them from the rest would be a 3+ save. Might be too good, I'm not too sure for balance though.
I think I'm quite lucky to play against a relatively casual community here where I feel like the SCE blob is very difficult to handle.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Mar 14, 2020 23:17:12 GMT -5
Yeah like 40k AoS can be extremely cut-throat at high levels. Fyreslayers, I admit, are probably one of the worst matchups for conventional SCE just because they basically do the same thing (field a blob of tough 2W 2A guys with support characters) but they do it a lot better, and you aren't that much faster so it's really hard to play the objective game. But as each new book comes out SCE has fewer and fewer matchups it can shine in, which is why every tourney list now is usually the silly raptor spam + chaff meme.
I think all else being equal SCE could definitely be balanced around 3W 3A base - I might leave them at a 4+ but I think they should always have staunch defender, it's super fluffy for them and helps make them tanky which is hard for elite units.
I do think you can get work done with that Sequitor blob but you should keep an eye out for enemy hammer units with multiple damage and high rend, or high mortal output. Like you said, you can tarpit no rend attacks forever, but a lot of the nastier units out there have ways to mess you up ridiculously fast. Especially people who fight at the start of combat or worse, fight twice. Knowledge is power!
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Post by Impulse on Mar 14, 2020 23:33:09 GMT -5
I find it rare to encounter rend -2 or higher on standard guys admittedly. I think one of the worst things are storm vermin with their 2 attacks -1 rend, heroes and the like can be annoying ofc but yea rend of 2 is a bit rare I think.
Even with rend of 1, you save 75 percent of the attacks which makes them quite strong.
Do you have a rules reference for what happens for 'at the start of the combat phase" abilities? Which one's resolve first? The one who has active player?
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Mar 14, 2020 23:43:03 GMT -5
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Post by Impulse on Mar 14, 2020 23:51:12 GMT -5
Much appreciated for the sources, I learned something new:)
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Mar 15, 2020 1:13:27 GMT -5
No problem! I like to talk tactics, combat math and rules. It's usually something I only get to do on the big forums like dakkadakka or TGA but it's nice to discuss stuff here when the chance presents itself.
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