conversion of my lists to 9th

[Frosty the Pirate]

Just to ask, how did you use the GSC? Obviously the Nids components does it's best not to attract too much attention by using LOS blockers. Did that result in the GSC attracting more firepower than maybe it should have?

I've heard of an interesting tactic that's emerging with GSC where you use Perfect Ambush with one unit each turn to "steal" an objective from your opponent forcing them to pivot or deal with you being in their backfield. Not sure if that actually works, but it was mentioned on a couple different podcasts I've listened to recently.

[Jack Shrapnel]

okay, here's another kick at the can with GSC added to nids... went a different direction with this... I realize bring it down is an easy secondary pick against me as there's 17 points worth and you want to kill the monsters/vehicles anyways, but hoping this has a bit more staying power for the GSC side and objective grabbing potential. At least assassinate isn't as easy to get...lol


++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) [40 PL, 10CP, 679pts] ++

Cult Creed: The Rusted Claw (+1 save vs. AP0/AP1)


Jackal Alphus [4 PL, 75pts]


5 Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]
5 Acolyte Hybrids [3 PL, 40pts]


2 Achilles Ridgerunners [8 PL, 140pts] Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser, 2x Heavy Stubber
Atalan Jackals [10 PL, 114pts] 6x Atalan Jackal: Cultist Knife, Shotgun, Atalan Wolfquad: Improvised Weapon, Mining Laser

Goliath Rockgrinder [6 PL, 135pts]: Cache of Demolition Charges, Clearance Incinerator, Heavy Stubber
Goliath Rockgrinder [6 PL, 135pts]: Cache of Demolition Charges, Clearance Incinerator, Heavy Stubber



++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [62 PL, -1CP, 1,318pts] ++

Hive Fleet: Kronos
Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [9 PL, 175pts]: Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Rending Claws, Powers: Catalyst / The Horror, The Venomthorn Parasite (gives the venom cannon max shots so always assault 3)

Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Symbiostorm, Warlord


3 Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
3 Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]
3 Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]

6 Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts] 6x Impaler Cannon
6 Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts] 6x Impaler Cannon

Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis (5++ and counts as double wounds)
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis (5++ and counts as double wounds)

++ Total: [102 PL, 9CP, 1,997pts] ++

[Jack Shrapnel]

Aug 30, 2020 6:55:55 GMT -5 Frosty the Pirate said:

Just to ask, how did you use the GSC? Obviously the Nids components does it's best not to attract too much attention by using LOS blockers. Did that result in the GSC attracting more firepower than maybe it should have?

I've heard of an interesting tactic that's emerging with GSC where you use Perfect Ambush with one unit each turn to "steal" an objective from your opponent forcing them to pivot or deal with you being in their backfield. Not sure if that actually works, but it was mentioned on a couple different podcasts I've listened to recently.

The GSC were basically there to try and flip backfield objectives with fairly reliable charges. One unit tied up a relic scorpious and eventually killed it over mine and the opponent's turn then turtled on an objective. One failed a charge and was subsequently erased with bolters. One tried to bail out a ridgerunner that was charged by a unit of wulfen and killed a couple then were just erased. The magus did smite and undermine once (but I shot the unit to pieces so undermine did nothing really) and the kelermorph flipped an objective, killed a lone wolf then tried to get rid of 5 intercessors with shooting and long bomb charge (which made a 12) to touch an objective, however just got murdered by the 3 intercessors who didn't die (his gun is not THAT great without the relic and without shooting characters). 

Problem was the assassinate secondary, which didn't come much into play because I hid like crazy, COULD have easily been a blowout as well... the GSC characters are SO easy to kill. (as it was the clamvus died, the magus had 1 wound left, the kelermorph died and the jackal alphus had 3 wounds left but Justin's snipers kept rolling 1's to wound lol) so just a liability for what they gave (and I had to use the clamvus on the board to try to protect from the wulfen's on the hunt strat) 

So they KINDA did what I thought they would... however not efficiently. A full GSC list can just keep trying to trade and flip all game, however what really, really hurt me was that I had no ability to push forward and score early primary, so was playing catchup all game (because the combat elements could not arrive before turn 2... and it took til turn 3 to actually start flipping objectives - so playing 30 points behind!) 

I also went second which is rough for this kind of list, that already is trying to play the flip objectives and blunt enemy positioning game. 

The rebuild is based upon a couple concepts:

- push forward with bikes and rockgrinders to force my opponent to try and flip midboard from me instead of the opposite. 
- rockgrinders can be a pain to kill and you actually don't want to see them in combat where they're actually pretty good, plus flamers and demo charges due to the embarked acolytes
- when the rockgrinders die (ahem marines turn one exist) I have obsec to drop out on objectives... they're not much but can annoy
- rusted claw bikes don't just instantly die to bolters like everything else gsc and have some movement shenanigans to bounce around objectives if ignored, plus an extra mining laser which ignores heavy movement penalties.
- using rippers to pop up on backfield objectives as who cares if they die and they still require some attention to remove as they can easily hide. 
- upgrading to a hive tyrant gives me a credible counter-charge threat, more heavy shooting (flat three damage is nice on a 3 shot S9 AP-2 assault weapon)
- neurothrope gets to sit and play babysit /symbiostorm buff to the exocrines and hive guard, while the tyrant can push forward without caring. 
- if my opponent brings psykers there's reasonable defense between two psykers (so abhor isn't a great secondary against me) and deepest shadows strat to shut down powers within 24" of any kronos unit (even rippers!) (strat is 1 cp to make the opponent roll only 1 dice for a power)

[Frosty the Pirate]

I really like this rework given that explanation. Especially since I'm kinda just learning GSC it helps me understand what the list elements are trying to do.

It's got a very nice Hammer & Anvil feel now looking at the point balance. The tyrant really changes things up because he can be a forward threat and like you said the counter charge ability to relieve a tagged unit is going to be something you'll really be glad you have.

Amazing transformation, looking forward to hearing how this does.

[Jack Shrapnel]

so tried the Kronos Nid / GSC list today vs. Iron hands

I think this list MAY have potential, even though I got absolutely wrecked today, however to be fair I

- went second
- absolutely failed on every mining laser shot the entire game. Like every one. I did five points of damage total in four turns of 2D3+1 mining lasers a turn. They were so bad they didn't even soak enemy firepower for the first two turns...lol
- it took my entire army shooting to kill one dread, and I lost an exocrine turn one.

So that bad luck vs. iron hands is going to be pretty much a slap down anyways, however there were a few things that were definitely winners:

- exocrines are pretty great.... never leave home without adaptive physiology though
- hive guard are the best thing in the nid codex
- relic venom cannon on a tyrant was not bad at all
- rockgrinders give me something to push to midboard that doesn't instantly get erased (although a chapter master with stormshield and hammer completely wrecked one obviously!)
- rippers popping up for engage on all fronts seems pretty solid, even if they cannot do any actions cuz swarms

Things that are not great:

- ridgerunners hitting on 4's with random amount of shots is not reliable. Jason smartly vindicare'd that jackal alphus so they lost their 3+ to hit a unit (not that it was working either, but theoretically it could have) I see why people run 9 of the damn things, just to mitigate poor BS
- acolytes die to a stiff breeze the minute they get out of a transport, with no special weapons they don't kill much at all. Seriously the rippers were harder to kill.
- jackals were ....okay... I guess... I mean I probably misplayed them. they killed nothing, did some screening then died. But theoretically they could get on an objective... I probably should have ran them up a flank or something instead of hoping that mining laser could do something.

so...

I think it needs more testing. I could just drop a few things here or there or try to change some stuff up, but with having GSC in the list, it does limit my options... will give it some more thought.

Altogether it was a fun game though, and Jason's always a great opponent!

[LizardTau]

ya if you went first/ had some better hit rolls (be worse 6+ fnp rolls) if may have been a totally different outcome.

It was a fun game.

[Frosty the Pirate]

It sounds like with a few more games in this config there's definitely potential. I agree fully with your post game self assessment that it just needs more time. When a unit feels like you just played it wrong more so than anything else, I've always found within 5 games or so it starts to feel pretty comfortable.

Rotten luck on those lasers. Sounds like Jason might have had a hot streak on his saves too

[Jack Shrapnel]

I haven't played nid +gsc yet where I didn't think "should have just brought more nids instead"

and it's not like tyranids are top tier lol

[Jack Shrapnel]

alright... gave some thought to "what would kronos nids look like without the GSC component"

well... here it is:


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [96 PL, 11CP, 1,999pts] ++

Hive Fleet: Kronos

+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [9 PL, 180pts]: Adrenal Glands, Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, The Venomthorn Parasite, Warlord
Malanthropes [7 PL, 135pts]
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Catalyst

+ Troops +

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth

+ Elites +

Deathleaper [4 PL, 65pts]
Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Maleceptor [9 PL, 170pts]: Massive Scything Talons, Power: Symbiostorm
Zoanthropes [12 PL, 270pts]: Power: Psychic Scream 6x Zoanthrope: 6x Claws and Teeth

+ Heavy Support +

Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis

++ Total: [96 PL, 11CP, 1,999pts] ++

------------------------

So what do I gain by losing the gsc?

Deathleaper, a malanthrope, a malceptor, 3 ripper swarms, 6 zoanthropes

why did I add these specific units?

3 ripper swarms do objective grabbing or screen duties, whatever I need, and deathleaper is easy to hide and jump in the backfield and actually has a chance at surviving due to all his special rules (yes, a lictor is almost the same now, but deathleaper isn't much more expensive and is slightly better. So both these units add some objective grabbing to the list

The malanthrope is another source of synapse, but critically is also the bubble of -1 to be hit. is he worth 135 points? probably not, but I have to keep the firebase alive and he helps do that. (and he's cheaper than the SIX venomthropes it takes to protect monsters)

The malceptor is there because he can sit back and cast symbiostorm on either hive guard or an exorcrine, and with +1 to cast he's pretty damn good at it. He also sports a 4++ and although T7 his blood of baal strat (ie: every opposing shooting phase) gives a bubble where ranged weapons are -1 strength vs. anything in the bubble. So that means lascannons go to wounding the exocrines on 4's and missile launchers/ exorcists on 5's and heavy bolters on 6's! So he brings survivability to the exos and hive guard and some psychic might. plus he fights better than the exos so can dig them out if necessary.

The zoanthropes are there to push midfield with the neurothrope. 18 wounds with a 3++/5+++ is not easy to cut through, and at full complement they smite at 24" doing D3+3 mortals each time. The neurothrope gives them reroll 1's to cast powers, and when it kills a model with smite it can heal a zoanthrope model. Sure they will kill NOTHING in any other phase, but can just advance up to midboard and be super annoying to remove. If someone charges them to try taking them out, they have to deal with alot of invuls and eating mortals.

[Jack Shrapnel]

think i'll give the kronos list a try, with a switch up because I don't actually own a second exocrine... (YET - they're on back order!) instead I'll run a tfex with rupture cannon, dropping the fourth ripper squad and adrenal glands on the tyrant to make that fit. He'll get the 5++ and count as double wounds that the second exocrine had as well.

[Frosty the Pirate]

Zoanthropes are definitely excellent midfield support, I think those are going to be really great for softening up a target. Don't forget you can advance freely every turn with the zoans since they have no shooting. They are definitely a great unit for hunkering down on a midfield objective.

I worry Kronos (and I say this with similar traits like Cadia as well) will tempt you to stay still and shoot instead of moving, and moving looks like it really wins games. It'll be tough to balance sitting still for the trait and moving to cover objectives, especially in a mission like Scouring, so make sure you pick your secondaries wisely, this list looks like it might be a bit limited in what secondaries it can pick up easily.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I have no illusions about the effectiveness of this list (ie: none)... however I think it would be cool looking on the table (for the two turns it would live)


++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Daemons) [78 PL, 6CP, 1,398pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Khorne


+ Stratagems +Rewards of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage [13 PL, -1CP, 250pts]: Armour of Scorn, Exalted Bloodthirster
Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 195pts]: Daemonic axe, Khorne, Skullreaver, Warlord, Wings
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster [12 PL, -1CP, 230pts]: Exalted Bloodthirster

+ Troops +

20 Bloodletters [12 PL, -1CP, 193pts]: Banner of Blood, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
20 Bloodletters [12 PL, -1CP, 193pts]: Banner of Blood, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
20 Bloodletters [12 PL, -1CP, 193pts]: Banner of Blood, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos
Bloodletters [12 PL, -1CP, 193pts]: Banner of Blood, Bloodreaper, Daemonic Icon, Instrument of Chaos


+ Fast Attack +

9 Flesh Hounds [8 PL, 144pts]


++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -3CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [30 PL, -3CP, 600pts] ++

+ Lord of War +

Greater Brass Scorpion of Khorne [30 PL, 600pts]

++ Total: [108 PL, 3CP, 1,998pts] ++

----------

the bloodletters deep strike, giving me ZERO CP to start the game...lol

first turn, yeah the scorpion gets killed (with 20 wounds he cannot hide) losing me a mighty SIX HUNDRED points... but then my thirsters should live long enough to hit combat once. and then bloodletters come pouring onto the table. Then, well there's a lot of blood and I have no army left, but khorne would be VERY pleased.

it's kinda funny how not-scary a mono-khorne army is, but other than bring it down (which can only give out 11), I'm not really bleeding any secondaries at least

[Jack Shrapnel]

Sept 10, 2020 6:43:47 GMT -5 Frosty the Pirate said:

Zoanthropes are definitely excellent midfield support, I think those are going to be really great for softening up a target. Don't forget you can advance freely every turn with the zoans since they have no shooting. They are definitely a great unit for hunkering down on a midfield objective.

I worry Kronos (and I say this with similar traits like Cadia as well) will tempt you to stay still and shoot instead of moving, and moving looks like it really wins games. It'll be tough to balance sitting still for the trait and moving to cover objectives, especially in a mission like Scouring, so make sure you pick your secondaries wisely, this list looks like it might be a bit limited in what secondaries it can pick up easily.

hence the changes I made... out of 14 units, 6 won't be pushing forward, but everything else will be, or dropping on objectives (ie: the rippers). I am interested in how it will play out, especially with the T-fex swap while I await a second exocrine. 

which as I was typing this I rolled back into battlescribe and played around a bit... and could do THIS as a final Kronos list instead (so having an acid spray tfex as a dangerous push unit at the cost of downgrading deathleaper to a lictor (as he's just there to bounce on an objective anyways) and losing the malanthrope, who really is quite expensive for what he gives.....actually the more I think about it the more I want to try this out instead:



++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [95 PL, 11CP, 1,995pts] ++ Hive Fleet: Kronos

+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]

+ HQ +

Hive Tyrant [9 PL, 180pts]: Adrenal Glands, Heavy Venom Cannon, Monstrous Rending Claws, Power: Catalyst, Power: The Horror, The Venomthorn Parasite, Warlord
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Catalyst

+ Troops +

Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth

+ Elites +

Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Hive Guard [12 PL, 300pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]: Flesh Hooks, Rending Claws
Maleceptor [9 PL, 170pts]: Massive Scything Talons, Power: Symbiostorm
Zoanthropes [12 PL, 270pts]: Power: Psychic Scream 6x Zoanthrope: 6x Claws and Teeth

+ Heavy Support +

Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts] Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
Tyrannofex [10 PL, 195pts]: Acid Spray


++ Total: [95 PL, 11CP, 1,995pts] ++

[Frosty the Pirate]

Interesting, adding the Tfex as a forward body definitely causes some havoc for an opponent, he obviously won't survive concentrated firepower, but there's some target priority nightmares emerging from those changes for sure. The same weapons that want to shoot the "squishy" T7 + invul stuff like the Maleceptor or the Exocrines, are also the same weapons you NEED to deal with the Tfex efficiently due to T8 W14. Worse case and he gets evaporated, it probably still buys an extra turn of something else being at top bracket at minimum for a nastier return volley.

One minor optimization I noticed, since the Lictor is stripped down to 37 points, you could just take him out completely and put the 4th unit of Rippers back in, and then throw your last 5 points into an Adrenal Gland on the Tfex in case you want to charge with it, because I believe you only need to give up movement to get double-shoot, and are still able to charge afterwards. (You could also use it for a Toxic Sac on the Hive Tyrant to stack with the rending claws for brutal-criticals on 6s).

Also of note, I realized that it's possible "While We Stand We Fight" as a secondary could actually be viable with this list due to the target priority nightmare it creates. 2x Hive Guard are likely hiding out of LOS anyways, and the Zoan unit with the healing and strong invul would again, also stacks up the target priority nightmare for an opponent. As an opponent facing this, I'd probably find myself thinking "ok, so I just need to kill everything I guess?"

[Jack Shrapnel]

exocrines are also T8... so that is some decently tough threats. The t-fex won't have the invul so will likely be the easier target to dispatch... so will likely get catalyst for the FNP to make him at least survive a turn. Plus the first turn the Malceptor will be dropping his strat to make guns -1 strength. It's not going to hold up against a proper marine list of course, but it's nids, they are not in a great position right now.

adrenals on a tfex aren't great (+1 to advance charge when he NEVER wants to advance and is pretty lackluster in combat) and the lictor has better deep strike to get around screens and is easier to hide than a squad of rippers (for literally 1 more point!) so I think he's worth the play.

While we stand we fight is the hive tyrant, t-fex and one of the other 170 point monsters. Sadly it's MODEL not unit, so although I'd LOVE to say "try killing these zoans and out of LOS hive guard instead" that's not how the secondary works. And lets face it, any opponent's list can pretty easily kill a couple monsters these days.

I'll be giving this a test vs. Cory this Saturday (I'm assuming vs. his really tough raven guard) so while I do not anticipate a win at all, I can at least see some things that possibly work or not.  I'm already giving up 30 points of secondaries pretty easily with this list as bring it down and abhor the witch both have a max 15 pretty easily as all the monsters are worth 3 each and there are 3 psychic characters and the psyker zoans. That hive tyrant and the malceptor are both going to give up a LOT of points as they count for BOTH secondaries (I really hope GW eventually changes that things count for multiple secondaries when they die!)