Chapter Tactics - all 40k armies ranked for 9th

[Jack Shrapnel]

For those of you who are into this kind of thing here we go...

first and last are NOT a surprise to me at all, but I'm sure there's a lot of room for error (I personally don't agree with how low wolves and BA hit the list, given they are still space marines and still have the majority of things that make marines great)


www.frontlinegaming.org/2020/07/21/chapter-tactics-168-power-ranking-every-40k-faction-in-9th-edition/?fbclid=IwAR2vB-4o8NhmvYbDQ_4c_jIMzdmvphr0vITHp1UBj_R0YOfORVmxY7df98I

[Frosty the Pirate]

I actually listened to this yesterday and there were a few surprises. One of the folks actually had Orks just outside the top 10, and another had Tyranids in 12th? I believe.

While the top 5 was almost universally similar across the various folks, there was a lot of debate about the gatekeeper factions and who has the tools to beat them. Craftworlds, Drukhari, Imperial Guard, Chaos Space Marines and Thousand Sons were all generally regarded as armies you need to be able to beat handily to crack the top 5, which I think is why it was universally similar.

This means the some of the top factions have erily similar traits and means just one faction breaking out of the gatekeeper or competitive sections (top 15 and top 10, minus the top 5) or the meta shifting even slightly from the expected vehicle/transport heavy meta will basically make these power rankings irrelevant.

However, as no high level tournaments are scheduled until possibly as far away as the SoCal or the LVO, there may be very little data to evaluate the competitive scene on for some time.

Some other random bits:

One of the guests mentioned that even through he had Tyranids and GSC ranked very lowly, he thinks combined they could actually be quite powerful as together they have almost all the same tools as the top armies have at their disposal, the problem is that they will have to pay at least a couple CP to reach that power level for multiple detachments and he expects a hybrid build to emerge.

There was quite a bit of talk that Harlequins and Custodes might be over rated by quite a large margin. They both suffer from being elite armies with low model counts and their current builds are a bit of a one trick pony. Particularly Custodes as they are apparently such a FOTM right now that their entire line is completely sold out on GW's site with the exception of the venerable land raider (which was recently a runner up in a 'worst unit in 40k' vote)

Sisters of Battle were universally rated as the number 1 'Dark Horse' to emerge. They have extremely good matchups with many top rated and gatekeeper armies. It's expected that several top rated ITC players will be giving sisters a look as they have the tools needed to crack the top 5.

A special mention was thrown out to a very new particular Chaos Daemons build which apparently when played correctly can absolutely demolish the current top ranked Custodes build. (I'm not familiar with Daemons, so I can't articulate correctly but I believe it was based upon a 3x Lord of Change setup?) Skari mentioned he watched this match over TTS last weekend and the Custodes player was a ranked ITC player. He was apparently in sheer awe at the level of domination this build was able to achieve.

[question]

Very interesting. I'm a little surprised at how high the Harlies are. I have fun playing them but don't see them that far up. Like Shannon, I'm surprised at the ranking for SW and BA. Even that DA are ahead of them is surprising to me and I play them. But the proof will be in hitting the tables and seeing what havoc may be wrought.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I basically play the chaos daemons monster list that they were talking about (my revamped list on my 9th ed lists - with a few notable changes).. .when it works, oh man it works well. Falls hard to knights though, as I found out, as the list kind of relies on hitting something hard and crippling it, so you can survive the counter punch... knights are better at surviving and punching straight back harder - and a 5++ as your only protection is pretty meager.

I'm really liking sisters right now. In the games I've done with them they are surprisingly survivable (for a T3 army!) and have a lot of tricks as well as a bunch of different builds. When I've tried them out thus far they've done quite well.

Skari was the sole person who ranked Nids/GSC so high, and it got me thinking about a combined arms list (ie: screw CP) since the list I figured out for 9th upon reflection really wasn't any good, and now that deliverance broodsurge is no longer legal (thanks GW... Vigilus is what, six months old?) that also wouldn't work. Out of any of my armies I'm doing alot of thinking about these two and what is possible. I don't think they'll be top tier competitive by any means but there's gotta be a workable list in there so long as it's not vs. tau, who gsc just shake hands and call good game to save us all alot of time (T3 models with a 5+ armor save don't fare well against overwatch - especially defended terrain 5+ and greater good overwatch)

There wasn't a LOT that I disagreed with, and I think everyone pretty much agrees that marines are top of the heap still, and likely will be for a long time.

[raceygaming]

I mean they just launched the new marine starter box so I hope they are good. Need to hook players early.
I'm also really hoping necrons will love up to thier new release

[trantos01]

Kind of hard to say what will happen to the Necrons. The boxset and various previews have shown that a range revamp and expansion is on the way. We just don't know how extensive any and all changes might be until the codex comes out.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I'm thinking the new necron codex will be out very soon. I mean marines are going to be first... we know this... but second codex I would think for sure. So I am anticipating that they will be at a good power level after that.

[Malarks]

*looks at pile of Greenskins on the shelf*
"I still think you're cool."

[Jack Shrapnel]

Jul 23, 2020 6:49:51 GMT -5 Malarks said:

*looks at pile of Greenskins on the shelf*
"I still think you're cool."

I thought it was great that no one could agree on a definitive spot for orks as their codex had so much depth and they still have a lot of value vs. "yeah but what about blasts" etc. 

Orks have a LOT of play value still. 

*stares disapprovingly at GSC army* Well at least everyone agreed on ONE ranking....

[Frosty the Pirate]

People are over-estimating how dangerous the Blast rule is imo. It's all fear-factor. Even a crazy 2D6 shots weapon firing at a 30 model unit is only getting 12 shots. Can't lose 30 guys to 12 shots. (Well, unless you are a Necron Player with Telsa and the dice rolling skills of a literal god)

There's a very few niche scenarios where the Blast rule is completely devastating. Guard Wyvens are one of them because it's 4D6 shots, but apparently people don't do sanity or reason these days. It's Overreactors R US all day all the time.

If you think about things not in a vaccuum. The blast rule may have come to exist to generate the shots/threat/causalities that hordes were taking from Morale rules (hence why the only hordes seeing play were the ones who could ignore morale). it's almost like once this fear factor wears off, there might be EVEN MORE HORDES than before!

[Jack Shrapnel]

Blast weapons vs. some units are devastating, so I'm not sure where that position comes from.

Orks with 6+ saves, gaunts with 6+ saves, GSC acolytes with 5+ saves, genestealers with 5+ saves, cultists with 6+ saves, all daemon troops with a 5+ save etc. etc. etc.

you didn't think people were going to bring ONE blast weapon in their whole army right?

all you have to do is force a morale, which most units are not actually immune to. The unit then loses a model. If they now are under half (pretty easy to do with a wyvern and another blast weapon shooting into a horde) now everything else dies on a 1 or 2. Then possible coherency issues.

it's the casualties racking up to force the other parts of the morale phase... you don't have to kill all 30 models in a huge unit to kill it... you need to kill 15 to decimate it and cause the morale cascade... vs. a 20 man unit (non gaunts/orks rarely ever are above 20) you now have to do 10. Pretty easy. ... something a couple of blast weapons have the potential to easily do... or even just one if you're lucky.

but hordes are cheap you say? 20 genestealers is 300 points. And decimated by that one gun you gave as an example. And very likely outside of synapse as their whole job is to rush into melee.

Yeah, I'm a little worries about blasts, gotta say. Is it the entirety of the story? of course not. but to say this isn't really good is just not true.

[question]

To quote the frog: "it's not easy being green". But it CAN be a lot of krumpin' fun! We now return to the serious stuff.

[Frosty the Pirate]

I mean, I love being wrong on these things. Maybe Blast is massive and it'll define the whole edition as MSU world. But I'm becoming less convinced as I watch more battle reports roll in day by day.

I also forgot about the half-strength 1s AND 2s part of morale, which makes a big difference when you're rolling 10+ dice. So touche!

Genestealers definitely aren't a unit I was thinking about regarding blasts, I was thinking more about the standard builds like Orks taking 90 or 120 boyz and then adding things beyond that. Or Nids running 60+ Kraken Hormagaunts to rush and pin opponent's in place while the big nasties get into position. I'm not saying having units to sacrifice for the cause is for everyone, but it can be an effective playstyle! Your opponent has to shoot something. Might as well bait them into shooting your horde of gribblies instead of your more important stuff!

Lastly, I also want to say I really love debating random crap like this. Fun times!

[Jack Shrapnel]

I think it's more that there is a combination of things that are amounting to bigger changes, so I don't think blast itself is something that would mean an end to hordes, but there is a combination of factors which work against it.

So when you combine blasts with it being more punishing to roll those combat attrition rolls and the survivability is affected. You add into that the new engagement range, which effectively means two ranks maximum fight (as you have to be 1/2 inch away from a model in 1/2 inch - so essentially going from 2" range to fight to 1". This makes a massive change to the strategy of why you take these units.

You add to that pinning is no longer a guarantee so long as your opponent has CP. So let's say those 60 hormagaunts rush to pin something in place and actually survive their trek across the board (they cannot advance and charge with kraken, only genestealers can do that) and take no shots from bolters, (T3 6+ save) or blast weapons. they make the charge (no overwatch) and now they've surrounded a unit. Not only can they not fight their way out of a wet paper bag (S3 4+ to hit, no AP), but they will lose models in the fight phase (marines with shock assault for example, will do a number on this unit in melee). If the opponent cares, they spend some CP to fall back through the hormagaunts (worse case scenario in that they were completely surrounded). If not they stay in combat, beat them up again and if no synapse net they're melting to morale.

So I'm not saying hordes are dead or anything... they're just less attractive than some of the other options. You do not need as many troops now to unlock battalions for CP. So for a troop to be worth it, it has to do something the elite stuff cannot. Objective secured comes to mind. You can erase those hormagants like nothing and they'll melt. A unit of ork boys with a painboy and having T4 makes them even more sturdy, and if they can hit combat they're going to bully something off an objective pretty well. So I'd say Ork boyz still have a good solid role. As a tyranid player though, I'm likely going to just take 3x ripper swarms and call it a day. When you're talking GSC, I'm still going to take acolytes because not only are they obsec, but they also carry rock saws and strategic reserve without using CP, so they can help with objectives etc. With my daemons, there's little reason to take any tzeentch troops at all. daemonettes are just too fragile and blast hurts them terribly. Bloodletters can be good only if deep striking in. But when you compare to nurglings and plaguebearers - they have the survivability (FNP, cloud of flies, etc.) to actually HOLD an objective (which remember we score now at the end of the command phase so you must hold it for a whole turn).

I think death guard are actually going to be stellar this edition. Hardy obsec plague marines, everything is survivable as hell and super hard to shift off of objectives.

[Khalai]

Strangely enough, I was thinking the daemonette was going to be the go to troop for non nurgle centric lists for the sheer value. I agree that horrors are done. Bloodletter bomb is the only real viable way to play with them, and really, this edition daemons are really hurting for CP compared to before, so is this really viable?


Cultists will still be a thing if only because of how much normal CSM went up in cost. Bringing 6 units of 10 seems more in line than 3 units of 20+. I always liked MSU cultists because it forces your opponent to commit more than they're worth to remove them generally.