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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 1, 2021 9:53:18 GMT -5
Yup, I'm at it again.... Started putting together my separatist legion models (as I was so tired of painting white stormtroopers) which inspired me to start working on their codex last week. I've got the first draft done. I've done the points and strats based on comparable units/strats in the Necron book (their closest comparison) as well as the space marine book (for such things as points for power sword equivalents and "almost" storm shields for the BX commandos) If you're interested have a read. I'm really appreciative of any feedback / suggestions you can give. Like all my star wars armies, I would only play these in situations where the opponent agrees beforehand and would not bring to any competitive tournament and expect my opponent to be okay playing against it. I'm a bit of a star wars nut, so this is all about a fun project to combine my two favourite things  HERE IS THE CODEXwww.mediafire.com/file/s0as1iqp3eofouz/codex+separatist+alliance.pdf/fileBATTLESCRIBE FILEwww.mediafire.com/file/9mqn8p98500ghp1/separatists.catz/file |
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Mar 3, 2021 7:38:07 GMT -5
Droids Droids Droids. I likey.
I took a read through, as a black-hat brain'ed person, I usually have a pretty easy time spotting areas that might need some attention, these were what stood out to me:
General Grevious' Multi-Saber-Parry is too strong against single-shot anti-character weapons like a Vindicare Assassin's Sniper Rifle. As it stands RAW, it's basically an Incursor Hex Gauntlet that activates every time he is shot at, instead of once-per-phase, or to a minimum of 1. I could also suggest it is re-worked to be a -2 to ranged attacks that target him, or a +1 to saves against ranged attacks.
Viceroy Nute Gunray's Protect Me! is mechanically awkward. Because of the timing of pre-hit rolls to retarget, it involves a lot of rolling to "split" the attacks between him and the other target. Imagine 20 bolter shots targeting him and needing to roll twenty 2+'s to split the attacks. Retargeting is also kind of an awkward mechanic in general, and has generally been removed in the few instances where it existed before (Old Cloud of Flies, Old Shadowseer, Old Night Fighting). I might suggest stealing Tau's Saviour Protocols or GSC's Unquestioning Loyalty mechanic to clean this up.
The AAT Battle Tank's Bunker Buster Missiles might be a little bit too spike-shooty. Given there's nothing stopping you from dumping all six shots on turn 1. I might suggest a Manticore or Skyray Gunship style rule where you are limited to firing two-per-turn, but possibly buff the profile slightly in return (perhaps Str 9?)
The Focused Firepower and March of the Machines Warlord Traits are something that is generally being removed from the game via the CORE and AURA changes. I don't see a particular problem with them, but as 9th evolves it'll become normal that these style of rules no longer exist. Could consider stealing from Rites of Battle and/or Chapter Master here instead.
The Rolling Death stratagem looks to be redundant? I think Droidekas already auto-advance 6" by their own special rules. Could consider making this a double-move or move-again strat to really reinforce their roll as early-game disruptor units.
I dislike this style of Orbital Strike stratagem where it feels like the old Preliminary Bombardment rules at the start of the game. I much prefer how the new Space Marines one works where it provides area-denial for 1 turn, or can be useful to punish backfield objective camping units, it provides a bit more tactical depth to the ability than yes/no to dumping 3CP at the top of turn 1 and RNG punishing armies that are clumped to use terrain and LOS at deployment.
Overall, another really high quality fandex, Well done. I'd be really curious to see what a sample army-list looks like for these guys.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 3, 2021 9:15:48 GMT -5
good point about rolling death... I was working on the strats days after the datasheets and must have missed that! will rework it. If gunray is targeted by 20 shots, he rolls 20 dice... any ones go on him, the rest go on a friendly unit (as it's when he's targeted, so as soon as the unit targets him he rolls. That way you still have to hit/wound for each shot on him, then on the nearby squad. It's no more clunky rules wise than the GSC one (where you would hit/wound, then saves, THEN pass off on a 2+. Gunray's ability is worded this way to be less powerful than the rule for GSC. Because I hate that guy. So I want him to die as he snivels for his friends to jump in the way. March of the machines literally only works on one unit in the codex, so it's already extremely restrictive (chapter master would be more powerful by far). I can reword focused firepower to <DROID> - which the equivalent of "core" for this codex - ie: no jedi, no cad bane, no grievous / gunray and no tanks There's nothing stopping you from shooting the one shot missiles all first turn. Just like hunter killer missiles, you can fire all of them you put in your army first turn as well. Except these missiles are worse lol. It does have the potential to spike some damage for certain. Yes Grievous' ability is strong vs. a vindicare assassin. It should be per-phase though. I will correct that. That was was how the rule was intended to be. So if you dump shots into him, you just shoot a crappy shot first to get around it. Plus he has the restriction that he cannot lightsaber parry the shot back with this ability anyways. If I give him +1 to saves vs. ranged attacks he's got a 3++ at range which is pretty strong. -2 to hit turns into -1 the majority of time and really isn't going to matter unless I just run him in front of my army ignoring the extremely powerful character protection. So essentially this is strong against one sniper shot. However he is literally the worst target for all my characters to shoot with a sniper anyways (high toughness 3+/4++ with the ability to reflect shots, 5+++ FNP), so this just encourages snipers to choose the proper target Orbital strike was pretty fluffy, and is an ability that is in star wars legion for the army, which is why I included it. It's not very strong and high CP cost, so much like the space marine ability (which got nerfed into the ground so no one uses it anymore) it's a pretty high cost to potentially do some area D3 mortals once. Given C'tan can do this every turn to multiple units for no CP cost, I figured this was not very strong! Thank you for the feedback... I am starting testing in games so hopefully will be able to fine tune some more stuff as I can test things out on the table. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 3, 2021 9:52:39 GMT -5
link above updated with changes.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Mar 3, 2021 11:02:57 GMT -5
Because I hate that guy. So I want him to die as he snivels for his friends to jump in the way. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Fair enough. No worries on the feedback, I just tried to give you raw thoughts as much as possible and then anything that came to mind as minimal-change fixes that could help you decide what you wanted or what you think fits the lore best. It's possible I may have some time to play a TTS game this weekend at some point, if I do and you are free I'd be gladly willing to throw down for a test game, through I have a couple different ideas for lists percolating in my head atm that need fleshing out. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 3, 2021 11:37:36 GMT -5
I'd be totally up for a test game... will be testing against Matt on Monday but I can certainly get a game together on Sunday if you're free
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 3, 2021 12:40:32 GMT -5
First test list I'm going to be trying out:
Battalion:
General Grievous - warlord
Count Dooku
T-Series Tactical Droid
10 B1 Battle droids - E5-C, E-60-R, radiation cannon
10 B1 Battle droids - E5-C, E-60R, sniper rifle
10 B1 Battle Droids - E5-C, E-60R
PX series worker droid
Cad Bane
7 BX-Series Commandos - 4x deflection shields, 5x vibroswords
4 Droidekas
4 Droidekas
B2 Super Battle Droids, B2-ACM, B2-HA
AAT Trade Federation Battle Tank - Advanced Repulsor Shielding (relic)
Patrol:
Darth Maul
9 B1 Battle Droids - E5-C, E-60R
9 B1 Battle Droids - E5-C, E-60R
DRK-1 Sith Probe Droids
1997 points
10 CP
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 5, 2021 10:57:21 GMT -5
First post updated with a battlescribe data file so you too can make separatist army lists |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 9, 2021 7:12:26 GMT -5
First test last night vs. a necron army with warriors, skorpekh destroyers, nightbringer and heavy destroyers... I brought the above list.
Going in I was thinking the super battle droids were possibly too strong, and that the characters would be doing most of the other heavy lifting other than the big tank.
Well didn't quite go as planned. I'll preface this with saying my rolls were amazing and Matt's were HORRIBLE the first two turns. To the point where I was worried it was not going to be a good test. But boy was I wrong.
Big tank basically has the same problems as a single repulsor, even using the relic to give a 5++... it got to shoot once, and was executed with extreme prejudice by the heavy destroyers.
The droidekas were very good. Lots of mid-strength D2 firepower and a 4++ were pretty darn solid. However once they were tied up in combat, or started failing that invul (although one turn I honestly rolled 12 out of 13 4++ saves) things went downhill quickly. If I allowed more than 4 in a squad though, it would be too powerful.
The Super battle droids were... okay I guess? They survived well for a while, but didn't have that much firepower and are abysmal in combat so again, tie them up and they're useless. But for sitting on a point and not dying they do well. Problem was, necrons and their warriors were just waltzing on the points and stopped my primary game cold. Trying to shoot warriors off objectives is...problematic.
So the characters... oh the characters... I had the nightbringer on three wounds, charged with Grievous and Dooku, did nothing to him and lost both characters. (did I mention lightsabers are flat 3 damage?). Then I had him on ONE wound, charged him with darth maul and did nothing and died. We agreed that the rest of the shooting in the army the next turn would have likely killed him... but that was probably Matt just being nice.
Cad Bane was...okay... he was like a kelermorph. On paper amazing... In practice he got me engage after failing to do any wounds to a technomancer.
The commandos were alright, but their only role in the game was killing a squad of warriors then sitting on the objective with a few shields up trying to not die so I could get 10 points on primary at least once.
The B1 droids are pretty terrible, but managed to charge a skorpekh lord on one wound, and even hitting on 5's wounding on 6's with no AP they killed him by getting a single wound through. But that was luck and I'd never rely on that of course... but in shooting they're kind of similar to stormtroopers. Not good, but can sneak an occasional missile launcher shot through.
So only the first game so certainly am not really changing anything yet. But playing a shooting survivable army vs. a shooty, more survivable army with a nasty combat element was too big a hill to climb for the droids, even with amazing dice.
Roger Roger
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Post by voodoo on Mar 9, 2021 8:29:20 GMT -5
I'll echo that Droidekas are super amazing and work exactly as they should; they're fast, durable and can mow down lightly armored targets with ease. lol, and when you spike invuls; they can really blunt a charge from Skorpek destroyers and a skorpek lord!
The super battle droids were good, and made a hot mess of a central unit of warriors before other targets eclipsed them and jammed forwards to protect the little guys. Maybe have them broken into different models; so you can have the additional variants of armaments? The B2-HA is a rocket launcher, and they still had the right hand blasters. It'd be some conversion work, but the B2 Rocket Troopers had small jetpacks and mounted 4 barreled laser cannons. Maybe something to think about to split them into different battlefield roles? Regardless, I think a 5 point reduction base would be more in line. Or change their default weaponry to be more heavy infantry/light vehicle hunting.
Commandos were solid, the ability to get out there quickly was good, and they did an ecellent job of hacking away at warriors, which makes sense as they should be infiltrating and going after the "soft" targets.
B1 battle droids are "good". The 6+ FNP was solid until multi-wound attacks started targeting them; and I feel like although they died to a stiff breeze once something targeted them, they're still fairly solid. Their shooting isn't great, but they did do a bunch of wounds to infantry, again; their chosen target. When they were buffed by the tactical droid, they shone a bit brighter and did some solid mowing down. Their specialist weapons felt a little flat, maybe if they were broken out; like the guard heavy weapon teams, that'd be better than having them embedded into the squads themselves.
Cad Bane didn't have a good place to deploy, and didn't have any really decent targets to go after. It was that particular turn Shannon's dice turned on him.
The big tank... It kinda flurped things up, I'll have a look at it and see what can be done. It's just SO incredibly big, it couldn't hide; and was literally the only target for the heavy destroyers.
I feel like the characters going up against anything else would have fared much better. The Nightbringer was just too deadly, and made some clutch saves. Against literally anyone else in the list, they'd have mowed through.
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Post by LizardTau on Mar 9, 2021 9:20:27 GMT -5
A thematic idea for droidikas is that they don't get the invul unless they only moved half or something as they don't have the shield when they are rolling. Only when they are open and shuffling.
Not sure if that would help how powerful they are.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 9, 2021 9:27:16 GMT -5
The Droidekas were the only thing in our game that was actually "good"... not overwhelmingly good, and honestly the one turn they survived was because my dice rolled a completely insane amount of 4++ saves vs multi-wound damage - I should have statistically lost the squad, but ended up taking two wounds on one instead.
I have two more test games scheduled (so far) this week. If they are too good, I will for sure tone them down!
It's hard to judge when I was effectively tabled (I had cad bane and some B1's left) and got half the points of my opponent - by that one game I need to crank up the power level - but I certainly do NOT want to do that before I have several games all with the same results!
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Post by LizardTau on Mar 9, 2021 9:39:47 GMT -5
Ahhh ya makes sense. Id play against it some time.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 9, 2021 10:27:48 GMT -5
Ahhh ya makes sense. Id play against it some time. absolutely! |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Mar 11, 2021 8:58:06 GMT -5
Another playtest with even more information to assess (thanks Ray!) this time against the GSC.
AAT Tank - well this time it didn't have heavy destroyers to contend with, so lived a little longer (I mean rock saws still killed it but it didn't die in one turn this time!). It is kind of a combination of a repulsor and a leman russ, which I'm pretty okay with. Not sure it's worth 300 points, however given the point cost of similar tanks, it cannot be less.
B1 battle droids - still hilariously bad, but we discovered when I referred to the missiles as "rockets" they seemed to hit marginally better (ie: twice). They're kind of like a fire warrior jammed into better armor. Not fantastic, but a decent thing to just sit on an objective and requires some effort to remove.
Super Battle droids - well they didn't die, firepower is okay and survivability is much better when they didn't have necrons to contend with! I think they're close to right.
Droidekas - They took a beating from some Aberrants (turns out those 4++ saves don't last forever!) but their shooting is really good, and they can do some work running around grabbing quarters. I'm guessing after what happened shooting aberrants though, that death guard are going to be a HARD counter.
The jedi/grievous did a LOT better this time (not facing nightbringer), Darth maul took out a patriarch, nearly was kicked to death by a sentinel, then stood there with one wound remaining in front of a leman russ, alphus and a squad of neophytes with mining lasers going "I REGRET NOTHING" (spoiler alert... he regretted this)
Grievous kicks butt when he makes it into combat with something that isn't a tank/monster/nightbringer. (okay it was guardsmen, he never came close to making his points) He's like any other melee only character though - screening and choosing worthwhile targets will be key.
Tactical droid was just kinda "there". he might have made a rocket hit once. I might have to think more on him as he did little in the previous game as well.
Dooku was kinda "meh" compared to maul / grievous... but his warlord trait is good so he makes a decent support warlord.
Commandos likewise were kinda just there, but in this fight they scored an early objective, planted a banner, and then killed a primus, so they did what they were supposed to do. I think they're good thus far.
PK series worker droid brought back a super battle droid. Then I reminded Ray it wasn't a character. So you know... he drew fire after that! altogether alright, and a targetable apothecary I think is just fine for the points. It's like a reanimator - does a benefit, but your opponent can choose to target and kill it if they want the benefit gone.
Cad Bane killed a kellermorph and shot up some acolytes... he's essentially a kellermorph with one better save/toughness at a cost of 2 less attacks (potentially four with the hit proc'ing of course). I think he's good.
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