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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 30, 2021 7:04:39 GMT -5
Well since I'm building nids again from scratch, thought I'd test out a few things that are NOT my regular nidzilla kraken/kronos combo as I try to figure out what to build for 9th. Obviously this is all subject to change if/when we get a new codex this year!
++ Battalion Detachment -3CP (Tyranids) [48 PL, 8CP, 872pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Leviathan (units within 6" of a synapse creature have a 6+ FNP)
+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Hive Nexus (all leviathan synapse is 18")
Neurothrope [5 PL, 95pts]: Power: Catalyst (5+ FNP)
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts]. 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
+ Elites +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Zoanthropes [14 PL, 250pts]: Power: Psychic Scream (another smite) 5x Zoanthrope: 5x Claws and Teeth
Zoanthropes [14 PL, 250pts]: Power: The Horror (-1 to hit) 5x Zoanthrope: 5x Claws and Teeth
++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [55 PL, 1,115pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kronos (reroll 1's if remain stationary)
+ HQ +
Broodlord [7 PL, 125pts]: Power: Symbiostorm(exploding 6's), Resonance Barb (+1 to cast and an extra power), Warlord
+ Troops +
Termagants [9 PL, 210pts] 30x Termagant (Devourer): 30x Devourer
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon Maleceptor [9 PL, 170pts]: Power: Catalyst (5+ FNP)
+ Heavy Support +
Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis (5++ and counts as double wounds for bracketing) Exocrine [9 PL, 170pts]. Adaptive Physiology: Dermic Symbiosis
++ Total: [103 PL, 8CP, 1,987pts] ++
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Post by raceygaming on Apr 30, 2021 7:29:35 GMT -5
I have actually been watching a number of battle reports over the last 3 weeks and I think you already hit the nail on the head. All 4 competitive Nid list that were show cased on various channels are Kronos/kraken.
The things that seem to be in common across the nids list that do well
- 6 Hive guard - 1-2 Exocrines - casters with barb and symbiostorm (exploding 6s to hit) - 1-2 Neurothrope - 50-60 gaunts to flavor (shooting seems to see more play then fighting) - 1 lictor - 1-2 ripper swarm units usually 3-6 models -adaptive armour? The ability to let a unit ignore Ap -1 and -2.
Things that seem to be more specific if teched into but strong
-swarm lord - any of the big FW bugs Dimonchion? And the scythed Hairodule? - 1 flyrant with mix of shooting/combat -warriors and Prime combo for hitting on 3s/2s
things I haven't seen in any games - drop pod guys -genestealers -broodlord - big bugs (carnifex/tyranofex/gaunt spawners guy)
I guess due to only die hard players still trying to make nids work and a lack of nerfs to FW I guess nids have a pretty solid tournament scene at middle high tables so there is hope. Nids might have seen one of the biggest changes to list meta in 9th but surprisingly a small pile of units seem to have enough tools to get them above a 50% win rate.
The hard part with Nids is that with the new codex coming at some point you have no clue what's gonna work, so it might just be a rule of cool collecting wise for now. Do things that look cool in your colour scheme and play vs tau, guard and orks.
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Post by Typhus on Apr 30, 2021 7:31:56 GMT -5
If you make a Neurothrope your warlord, you'd have an extra CP. And in my experience, they're really durable - such that Cut Off The Head and those BA/SW secondaries aren't realistic.
I'm a little curious about the inclusion of the Hive Nexus power - it seems to me this list isn't shy on Synapse, and it also seems like a power that... is a pain to use, because of sequencing. If you move away from your backline and fail to get the power off, you can't move back to them.
In test games with Zoanthropes, I've enjoyed the Cranial Channeling adaptation - due to its wording, if you have a different Zoanthrope attempt to manifest each of the two powers, you get a free reroll on both of them. Really reliable, especially paired with the Neurothrope aura.
Looks cool! Love me a list with Rippers and Lictors.
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Post by raceygaming on Apr 30, 2021 7:45:29 GMT -5
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Apr 30, 2021 8:31:53 GMT -5
One thing I've seen in several list was a large Warrior blob (6-9) with Deathspitters and the Ignore AP1/2 adaptive biology. It puts out a ton of S5 shooting isn't actually all that many points if you resist the temptation to over equip them just stick to the Deathspitter spam.
It's not exactly durable, but it either attracts firepower that would normally be reserved for MCs or takes a ton of Bolter fire to chew through, especially if you babysit your Neurothrope warlord with them.
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Post by voodoo on Apr 30, 2021 8:53:28 GMT -5
I can't wait to smash heads on Sunday, shiny bois vs. crabby bois.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 30, 2021 10:09:41 GMT -5
The only reason the broodlord is the warlord is so he can benefit from the resonance barb as the neuros only know one spell in addition to smite. I'm honestly not even sure a broodlord is a good idea, but figured he was a good counter-charge threat for the backfield for anyone wanting to bad-touch the exocrines and I had nothing to really spend the 20 points on.
The Hive Nexus power was so that if once the rippers / lictors drop in on the fringes that I could ensure they were in synapse range if needed (and let's face it, the tyranid powers are kinda "meh" beyond a couple of the hive fleet ones and catalyst - even the horror is pretty suboptimal now that minuses are capped at 1). More of a "why not include it, I have all the other good ones" moreso than a specific plan other than make the rippers not run away after losing a single model lol
The leviathan choice was based on the combo between zoans 3++ and having multiple wounds, to try and make it even less appealing to try and throw shots their way.
I am very likely going to come up with a kraken dimacheron + swarmlord list however given the forge world models (which are all of course all out of stock) required, the existence of Drukhari and Death guard, I'm a little nervous about investing in the big bugs until they get a new book to see where they're heading with stuff. I ran almost exclusively nidzilla in the past, so with this being a fresh start, I figured I'd start testing with some of the stuff that has a less familiar playstyle to me (ie: haven't used a devilgaunt in probably two editions lol).
I was also considering warriors again, however that means using one of the adaptive physiologies on enhanced resistance (ignore AP 1/2) as with their 4+ armor save they're pretty much dead in the water without that. And that means one exo doesn't get an invul... so felt a little nervous about that possibility (because exos are target priority #1 for ranged anti-tank weapons in a list like this) so figured they'd both need the 5++
will be testing this via TTS this weekend and trying to pull out a few things I like and a few things I don't. I'm feeling pretty secure about the 1k points spent in the kronos detachment, it all seems like efficient choices. The remaining 1k is what I'm kind of unsure about. Mainly spending 500 points on zoanthropes lol.
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Post by Typhus on Apr 30, 2021 10:41:40 GMT -5
The only reason the broodlord is the warlord is so he can benefit from the resonance barb as the neuros only know one spell in addition to smite. Doesn't have to be the Warlord to take the Resonance Barb.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 30, 2021 11:24:02 GMT -5
Yes sorry... was typing quick.. the reason I have a broodlord instead of a neuro was for the benefits of the resonance barb... but yes, making one of those neuros be the warlord instead (because nids don't take warlord traits cuz adaptive physiology is much, much better) would save me a CP and is the better play.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 30, 2021 18:18:46 GMT -5
And here's what I was thinking for a kraken list
melee nids have some struggles, but I'm hoping this could be a decent base list:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [101 PL, 11CP, 1,998pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Onslaught, Power: Synaptic Lure, xenogenic acid, Toxin Sacs, Wings Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Warlord
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Termagants [9 PL, 210pts] 30x Termagant (Devourer): 30x Devourer
Tyranid Warriors [12 PL, 252pts] . Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance . Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon . Tyranid Warrior (Bio-cannon): Scything Talons, Venom Cannon
+ Elites +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts] Lictor [2 PL, 37pts] Maleceptor [9 PL, 170pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts] Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]
++ Total: [101 PL, 11CP, 1,998pts] ++
-------------------------
So the hive tyrant is movement 16", has 5 attacks at strength 7, -4 AP, Damage 4 and on a 5+ to wound it does a mortal in addition. Also has a tail attack which is whatever but still can proc a mortal. Hits on 2's rerolling 1's, 4++ and a psyker
The warriors ignore AP1 & AP2, have some mid-power shots that can pop a transport with the venom cannons and are essentially old heavy bolters for some screen clearing. 27 wounds to chew through and a strat that can make them take 1 less damage in case firepower comes their way. Sure boneswords are sad power swords (s user, AP-2 D1) but it's better than scything talons at least!
the lictors score scramblers and can phermone trail in the devilgaunts to apply 90 (or 180 with 2CP) S4 shots to something. rippers pop up on objectives
Maleceptor uses the strat to keep the dimas and barb a little bit safer turn one.
One dima will get the swarmy slingshot, the other the kraken double advance, then onslaught to charge.
heridule's shots are there to pop transports and he has the melee capability to be pretty scary (S10 4 attacks WS3+ rerolling 1's to hit AP-3 D3+3 damage)
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 1, 2021 8:29:09 GMT -5
I really like this list. The only thing I don't like personally is the Swarmlord, I understand you've teched into him for the absurd extra early game pressure he applies. I'm just not a fan of him personally and I think he'll end up in the Supreme Commander slot in the new book.
This list can run equally well as Behemoth imo, but that's splitting hairs because kraken and behemoth are both excellent for melee focused lists. I'd recommend test playing both. The relic Adrenal Gland from Behemoth is really strong choice for melee focused nids that I think is often overlooked.
In case you want my raw thoughts, If I was going to steal this list for myself, I'd swap Swarmy for a Neurotrope and a Trygon Prime, then I'd have the ability to deploy the devilgants or warriors from the Trygon tunnel to shield them and create a brutal beta-strike. I don't think that version is 'better' than this one, it's just my style/preference
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 1, 2021 10:17:41 GMT -5
Yeah swarmlord is my favourite nid model so I have to include him sometimes For this list in particular he's key to the first turn effectiveness of the dimas, then he also becomes a pretty deadly missile to launch himself into combat as well. S8 with mortal wounds and a 3++ in combat? He's one of the best melee threats in the whole codex, so that's why he's in here. Threat overload and all that. I think he's expensive, and I agree he's likely to move to supreme commander in the next codex. Behemoth unfortunately does not have the mobility strats that Kraken does and the fall back and charge ability is crucial for the melee threats not being bogged down in combat by hordes (a dima is not going to fight it's way out of an ork boy unit and necrons are even worse for tarpitting them!) Melee nids depend on speed to get anything done because frankly a nid MC is fairly easy for any army to down in a turn. Have watched a few reports where someone picks up 1-2 dimacherons in a single turn before they get to do anything. I ran trygons extensively with my previous collection and they're frankly pretty terrible. And I really tried - I had one nicely painted up and the model is very cool. The prime is even worse as it's 190 points of meh just to get the synapse or add the relic for 3d6 drop the lowest for charge. T6 is just too fragile to work for something that expensive. Granted if the new dex improves Trygons I'll build one for sure as the model is great. I cannot justify running one right now though. Plus I don't need the Trygon to bring in the devilgaunts or the warriors... lictors do that already with phermone trail so I have the option if I want. I'd rather the warriors on the table to be honest and the devilgaunts in reserve to phermone trail in off a lictor where I want them. The warriors give me transport popping (DE) or some screen clearing so the big bugs don't get screened from their targets. And given how much of a target dimacherons are, I need them to do work before they are inevitably killed!
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 2, 2021 20:54:28 GMT -5
Tested list one vs. necrons, we called it my turn three as it was a done deal by that point.
Things that worked - well pretty much everything did as it should have... I really had been sleeping on the whole devourer gaunt / lictor combo in my previous iterations of nids and man they were effective. 90 shots (could have been 180 with single minded annihilation if I needed to) were sufficient after some smites from the neuros to erase a warrior blob (even with S4 AP0 shooting, it's just ridiculous weight of fire).
lictors are scrambler machines. hive guard are all stars as always. Exos are brutally effective, although did not appreciate getting shot by heavy destroyers (one completely hated it so much that he blew up in my lines causing mortal wounds to FIVE units - oh oh!). Rippers grab engage like champs (can't do anything else but who cares).
The one unit that really didn't do anything in the list was the maleceptor. His strat to drop the strength of weapons shooting the exos really didn't come into play (S10 going to S9 - big whoop) and really he just shot out a smite here and there otherwise. Not sure if he's worth the 170 points in this particular list (I'm guessing he will be alot more useful in the kraken list) but he needs more test games to be sure.
MVP's were zoanthropes... throwing out 2d3 mortals per unit was pretty damn brutal vs. crons. The neuros of course helped with the smite barrages and psychic scream as well made for some pretty nasty output. I had originally thought two units was way too many points. but they do a great job in psychic, can repel pretty nasty charges with their invuls (but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag!) and in a pinch could be doing actions as well as they're infantry.
Need more testing to see if the maleceptor has a home here or not, but needs more testing. Was just a bad matchup for him to shine in.
Game one though, I'm really happy with how effective this was. Thanks for the game Matt and all your feedback!
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Post by voodoo on May 2, 2021 22:12:40 GMT -5
I'm honestly not sure why I played on past T1 to be honest. I was playing about 500 points down at the end of your first turn and succeeded in killing exactly nothing on my T1. Didn't really matter that the maleceptor didn't do anything when lioterally everything else was hideously effective.
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Post by raceygaming on May 3, 2021 8:10:20 GMT -5
I'm honestly not sure why I played on past T1 to be honest. I was playing about 500 points down at the end of your first turn and succeeded in killing exactly nothing on my T1. Didn't really matter that the maleceptor didn't do anything when lioterally everything else was hideously effective. What did your Necron list look like? out of curiosity
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