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Post by raceygaming on May 3, 2021 8:26:50 GMT -5
Tested list one vs. necrons, we called it my turn three as it was a done deal by that point. Things that worked - well pretty much everything did as it should have... I really had been sleeping on the whole devourer gaunt / lictor combo in my previous iterations of nids and man they were effective. 90 shots (could have been 180 with single minded annihilation if I needed to) were sufficient after some smites from the neuros to erase a warrior blob (even with S4 AP0 shooting, it's just ridiculous weight of fire). lictors are scrambler machines. hive guard are all stars as always. Exos are brutally effective, although did not appreciate getting shot by heavy destroyers (one completely hated it so much that he blew up in my lines causing mortal wounds to FIVE units - oh oh!). Rippers grab engage like champs (can't do anything else but who cares). The one unit that really didn't do anything in the list was the maleceptor. His strat to drop the strength of weapons shooting the exos really didn't come into play (S10 going to S9 - big whoop) and really he just shot out a smite here and there otherwise. Not sure if he's worth the 170 points in this particular list (I'm guessing he will be alot more useful in the kraken list) but he needs more test games to be sure. MVP's were zoanthropes... throwing out 2d3 mortals per unit was pretty damn brutal vs. crons. The neuros of course helped with the smite barrages and psychic scream as well made for some pretty nasty output. I had originally thought two units was way too many points. but they do a great job in psychic, can repel pretty nasty charges with their invuls (but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag!) and in a pinch could be doing actions as well as they're infantry. Need more testing to see if the maleceptor has a home here or not, but needs more testing. Was just a bad matchup for him to shine in. Game one though, I'm really happy with how effective this was. Thanks for the game Matt and all your feedback! Ya I've looked over the Maleceptor a couple times and I don't really see how it fit in most list well. It gets a power but outside of Onslaught, catalysis, poryxism?(spelling) the fight last power, Nids don't really need anything else to work well and usually have enough casts with just 2 HQs. Also it is a 170 for a defensive buff of -1 strength shooting, which isn't too bad but it doesn't fit will in a lot of cases. It makes the most difference vs S4 shooting to protect little bugs and S8 shooting to protect bigger bugs. most of the time you are only going form 3's to 4s which isn't bad everything is so lethal it often doesn't feel like enough. Also playing 170 pts to baby sit either a swarm of little bugs or 1-2 big bugs from shooting only when that could just be another bunch of gaunt bodies for utility or screening - a lot of deadly melee units these days. I think with 170 pts you are getting close to a melee/shooting flyrant as an upgrade to an HQ unit which again feels like a lot more utility, an extra power, some screen clearing, some combat, pretty fast and a pretty cool model. I think Zoans are an interesting choice that do seem like a cool utility pick, the only thing holding them back is the large amount of Null zone marines (to a lesser extent death hex chaos) running around.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 3, 2021 9:00:02 GMT -5
The Maleceptor will be MVP some games and do nothing in others. Against a swarm of Marine Attack Bikes with Multi-Meltas for example, the drop of S8 to S7 will be absolutely crippling. He's definitely a utility pick, but don't discount him just yet! His time in the sun will come soon enough.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 3, 2021 9:18:28 GMT -5
Well the maleceptor is also synapse, so helps if the broodlord gets sniped to provide synapse to the kronos detachment (as then my shooters are all -1 to hit unless it's the closest target because leviathan synapse doesn't help kronos). It is pretty decent in combat to dig an exo out if they're charged, and he can give up his one spell to do a mortal wound bomb. He also is T7 with a 4++ so is pretty survivable as far as nid MC's. Plus his -1 strength aura comes into play quite a bit vs. marines and drukhari (those dark lances going to wounding on 5+ vs. the exos is pretty clutch, same with fusion)
His +1 to cast is also almost like having a second resonance barb effect for the army, and getting symbiostorm off is pretty crucial on those exocrines.
zones have alot of counters for sure - null zone, death hex - and really just tagging them in combat. They can't fight worth a damn, and it forces them to do their smite at the thing that chose to fight them.
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Post by voodoo on May 3, 2021 9:25:19 GMT -5
I'm honestly not sure why I played on past T1 to be honest. I was playing about 500 points down at the end of your first turn and succeeded in killing exactly nothing on my T1. Didn't really matter that the maleceptor didn't do anything when lioterally everything else was hideously effective. What did your Necron list look like? out of curiosity Here's the list. Necron Battalion - Custom Dynasty - Eternal Conquerors (units gain obsec) - Relentlessly Expansionist (pre-game 6" move) HQ: Skorpekh Lord (Warlord) - Enmitic Annihilator, Flensing Claw, Hyperphase Harvester - WLT: - Thrall of the Silent King - Relic: - Nanoscarab Casket Chronomancer - Chronotendrils & Entropic Lance Technomancer - Staff of Light, Canoptek Cloak - Relic: Veil of Darkness Troops: 15x Warriors - Gauss Reapers 15x Warriors - Gauss Reapers 15x Warriors - Gauss Reapers Elites: C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer Canoptek Reanimator Canoptek Reanimator 6x Skorpekh Destroyers - 2x Hyperphase Reap Blade, 4x Hyperphase Threshers Fast Attack: 6x Canoptek Scarabs Heavy Support: 3x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers - 3x Gauss Destructors 3x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers - 3x Gauss Destructors 1995 Points 10CP
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Post by raceygaming on May 3, 2021 11:01:36 GMT -5
Ya I could see how the Nids list could for sure do well here, having some very elite infantry for the hive guard to bully, and with the ignore LoS/cover there isn't a good way to keep them safe. It looks like you have a destroyer theme, so without altering the list too much.
- I think 2x 20 warriors feels stronger than the 15, and then maybe a 1x 5 immortals to fill out? - what is the advantage to the unit of 6 Skorpehk rather than 2x3 with a reap blade and 2x hyperphase in each? I feel like they hit pretty hard, is having to small mobile units an option?
- I'd also double check battlescribe, mine is coming up just above 2000 pts for this list did something get points added?
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 3, 2021 12:32:24 GMT -5
2x3 Skorpekh Destroyers would leave the Skorpekh Lord without character protection with just 1 model from each unit removed, and having them be 1 big unit allows the stratagem to give -1 to wound rolls against them for a phase a much more pronounced effect. If he splits them I'd just change targets after he pops the strat.
I personally think 20 warrior-blobs are contradictory to using Veil Of Darkness as well, fitting 20 models can really limit your placement and makes it a lot easier for your opponent to screen it out, especially with the Reaper's being 12" range, you've only got a 2.9" range band to make them work.
It's a pretty tough matchup for sure, the Kronos/Leviathan list has a LOT of shooting and mortal-wound output early game, and there's a couple very optimal targets for the Exos and Zoans.
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Post by voodoo on May 3, 2021 14:36:20 GMT -5
Ya I could see how the Nids list could for sure do well here, having some very elite infantry for the hive guard to bully, and with the ignore LoS/cover there isn't a good way to keep them safe. It looks like you have a destroyer theme, so without altering the list too much. - I think 2x 20 warriors feels stronger than the 15, and then maybe a 1x 5 immortals to fill out? - what is the advantage to the unit of 6 Skorpehk rather than 2x3 with a reap blade and 2x hyperphase in each? I feel like they hit pretty hard, is having to small mobile units an option? - I'd also double check battlescribe, mine is coming up just above 2000 pts for this list did something get points added? Ugh... calculation error.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 8, 2021 8:20:31 GMT -5
So I had a little time to digest the game last night between the Kronos/Levithan list and my Double-Patrol Craftworlds ( my list here) We rolled up The Scouring (5 objectives, Hold 2/3/More). Secondaries were fairly similar with Engage/Scramblers and I took Thin Their Ranks to try and score 3 points from wiping the DevGants + 2 more from knocking out the Exos, while Shannon took While We Stand We Fight taking advantage of Hive Guard and his large Zoanthrope units with Neurothropes for heal-bots. The real matchup here was the Psychic Matchup, as Craftworlds has several powerful abilities here with Runes Of The Farseer for any-number-of-dice rerolls on Psychic Casts/Denies, as well as Seer Of The Shifting Vector for extra rerolls in the psychic phase as well. My strategy was to try and block as much incoming damage from the Zoans as possible until I could reduce their numbers below 4 models, as their +D3 damage and 2nd cast is hinged on having at least 4 models in the unit, which would then reduce their output and make it easier for my light infantry such as Guardians and Dire Avengers to mulch them down with Jinx + Doom, which would Deny Shannon 10 points from While We Stand We Fight and hopefully allow my high quality shooting to clean up in the late game. I was fairly confident Linked-Fire Fire Prisms + Vaul's Wrath Support Platforms could over-match Dual-Exocrine and I could use Fire and Fade to stay out of LOS to make the exchanges between the Fire Prisms and Exocrines one-sided for at least the first couple turns. At least that was the game plan. I suceeded initially in blunting _some_ of the incoming damage from the Zoans with a couple lucky boxcars rolls + strategic use of Runes Of The Farseer to reroll a 1 when I rolled say a 1 and 5 or a 1 and 6, and even managed to block two super-smites. But the absolute torrent of powers flying around was pretty crazy from Dual Neuros + Dual 5 Model Zoans + Broodlord with Barb + Malceptor. The psychic phase domination from this list is absolutely real. I managed to use Obsec on one flank from Guardians supported by the Avatar and my Farseer to hold the Nids to zero primary through Battle Round 3, but a huge misplay into what became the TSN-Turning-Pointâ„¢ with an absolutely clutch The Deepest Shadow on Doom on top of Turn 2 to completely blunt my double-guardian-bomb into Zoans (It blocked ~20+ dice on the to-wound roll, despite popping Runes Of Witnessing to reroll ones). From that point my over-extension on that flank was countered by the DevGants arriving via board edge, and I was in full "go down pointing" mode from turn 3 onwards. Final score was 64-26, but I completely held the Nids off the score sheet until Turn 4/5 where I was down to just scattered remnants of the army after the Zoans and Hive Guard broke the back of my forces with Warp Blasts and Double-Shooting on the bottom of turns 2 and 3, leading to 15s for primary on T4 and T5, and 15 from WWSWF for 45 points in end game to secure the victory. In terms of overall feedback, the Dual Neuro/Zoan combo is absolutely brutal, the list was able to smite it's way through my heavy tanks and crack the shell to get to the gooey elf-center via mortal-wound-spam alone, which allowed the Hive Guard and Devgants to then go to work with double-shooting on the squishy stuff, which was the back-breaker. Malceptor did exactly what I predicted he would do, reducing my S9 prism cannons to S8 vs T8 in the exocrine/fire-prism standoff, and forcing my Bright Lances and other S8 weapons to wound on 5s, and he even had the opportunity to coup-de-grace the Avatar with a Psychic Overlord to attempt to finish him after a barrage of smites. While the Zoans were 100% MVP, Malceptor was definitely an unsung hero of the match, anchoring the battle line and supporting the Exos.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 8, 2021 8:56:09 GMT -5
So couple more tests for the Leviathan / Kronos list and some more thoughts about what works and what doesn't.
vs. Ultramarines - very close loss:
The maleceptor pulled his weight a little more this game, making me think he may have a place. The strat to drop ranged weapon strength certainly was useful here. Also used him with symbiostorm, giving a pretty survivable source of the power and synapse. Theoretically would have gave the broodlord more range away from the firebase, but that plan all kinda went downhill a bit. I got boxed in my deployment zone pretty much immediately by first turn charges from infiltrators into the zoans (they were screening the big bugs) which really put me on the back foot early on and I had to basically play catchup all game - but never quite got there! lol. Marines have some teeth for sure, especially when they can dominate the board turn one and not really give many options to push out of the zone. Great game though. was a nailbiter!
win vs. craftworlds
The maleceptor again pulled his weight (we're hitting his sweet spot here of opposing S8 + S9 firepower where the strat really shines) although I tried to do his mortal wound bomb to finish off the last wound of an avatar chopping up my firebase and he of course rolled a one! Silly maleceptor, just smite and symbiostorm please. The zoans here were a force to be reckoned with. Hive guard and exos did work as well. That lone lictor trying to run into the deployment zone for a last minute scrambler (we were playing scouring with the squished deployment zones and Ray did a good job of zoning me out so the lictor didn't have a spot!) was on 2 wounds and just needed to survive one D2 AP-1 shot - and he was in cover so was rocking the improved save. Alas it was not to be, and the bug was splattered all over the forest in a truly messy fashion!
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Thoughts thus far:
I'm happy with the list, but I think a small unit of termagants in the backfield may be very useful for that early scrambler. Thing is, the hive guard are my only non-character infantry that are in the back, and the zoans always push into mid-board.
considerations:
Option 1 - quick and easy switch using just gaunts
- dropping a unit of rippers and putting the devourer gants down to 26 to add 15 fleshborer termagants for the backfield. This gives a cheap unit for sitting on an objective, screening the big bugs (in situations like infiltrators above where I don't want my zoans tagged turn one). losing four devourer gaunts really isn't too limiting for the list (it's still 78 devourer shots when they land!) and adds a backfield element I'm missing.
Option 2 - a little more involved changes:
Drop the malceptor and replace the broodlord with a neurothrope (to carry symbiostorm for the exos) and one ripper squad
This allows me to make the zoanthropes 6 each (so further increases smite so now they do D3+3 each time!) and adds two units of three tyranid warriors - with a venom cannon, a deathspitter and one set of rending claws in each. These would allow me some action monkeys and objective sitters in the back field that can still contribute in shooting (and in cover have a 3+/6+++ and 3 wounds so not as easy to shift as termies) but if I lose them who really cares, and if they have to not shoot a deathspitter and venom cannon to scramble it's also not a big deal.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 8, 2021 10:09:20 GMT -5
I obviously am more in favour of the light-touch of dropping 4 Dev Gants and 3 Rippers for some Flesh Gants, my obvious bias toward the Malceptor with him having dunked on all my Str 8 made that fairly clear I was right about him being awesome some vs armies and less optimal vs others.
But I can understand wanting full units of Zoans, Obviously by my strat above I tried my best to exploit that 4 model "bracket" effect, and I just fell short in my execution. Having a 6th model would make that approach more difficult, so I can understand wanting to free up the 100 points for that.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 8, 2021 12:19:40 GMT -5
Yeah I'm really not sure... I have another game scheduled for tonight so I'm trying to decide between the minimal changes for some gaunts, keeping the same list, or going with bigger changes.
I'm thinking from a testing perspective, making minimal changes is probably better.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 14, 2021 7:21:16 GMT -5
After another couple of tests (vs. DE and another necron list) I think I'm pretty happy with the list and think it has the tools to be fairly competitive (with a clear VERY bad matchup with death guard). The maleceptor I think is going to stay, as he's pretty clutch against some lists (DE, marines, craftworlds, harlequins) even if he does nothing in others (ahem necrons) other than a survivable symbiostorm holder. Yeah that's alot of points for that, but I'm looking at a Take all Comers list so I think he's very valuable against some lists so should stay.
Adding the unit of fleshborer termagants, although they do not do a whole lot, can scramble, be a disposable screen when needed and if by some miracle they live (by virtue of being one of the least important things on the board) then maybe they can hold an objective. They're so cheap for the potential of doing an action that more important things won't need to, that this was a solid change.
The thing I'm not entirely sold on is Leviathan for the battalion. A 6+ FNP is nice and all within synapse, but although yes it comes up 1/6 of the time for my zoans (everything else is normally out of 6" of a synapse creature) in the test games I've done it has barely impacted.
I'm considering a (gasp) custom hive fleet. These are traditionally not stellar for nids and are almost never taken.
But I'm thinking there may be more play in the combination of:
Cranial Channelling - once per turn when a psychic test is take for a model with this adaptation, you can reroll the results. (as there's two units of zoans and two neurothropes that can benefit)
and
Metamorphic regrowth - a model with this adaptation regains up to 1 lost wound at the start of your turn.
This would add more reliability to the psychic phase, which the battalion really only does psychic for the most part, other than some secondaries with rippers and lictors. This would also add some healing, as it's often the case I've found where I'll have a wounded zoan, ripper or lictor on any given turn - and will likely come up at least as often as making the 6+ FNP does. Does nothing for the fleshborer termagants, but really after turn one who cares what happens to them?
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 14, 2021 8:57:44 GMT -5
Honestly, most lists I build these days I finish the roster and look at it, then think "It looks really good, but it definitely gets wrecked by Death Guard", so that's pretty much par for the course these days imo. It might just be the sub-set of factions I play but I haven't seen anyone who sees Death Guard line up across the table and thinks "YEAHHHHH BRING IT ONNNNNN!"
Glad to hear Malceptor earned his slot for now. I'm a huge fan of the model. Brain bugs is just super cool thematically to me so seeing Big Brain makes me smile.
The only other option I can see for the Neuro/Zoan/Lictor/Ripper/Gants detachment is Kraken to take advantage of strong advance rolls T1 to maybe grab an early Engage or jump on objectives? I don't really see anything else that benefits this detachment as much as the custom trait combo you picked out.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 16, 2021 6:34:49 GMT -5
Tested the kraken list last night, and it was a nailbiter for sure. The dimacherons and heridule were pretty disappointing in that they really didn't do much. The heridule was nuked turn one before it had a chance to do anything. The dimas killed a couple things (one chopped up a wraithseer and another killed some support platforms) then died because Ray wisely did not give too many possible targets in reach.
What was surprisingly effective was the flyrant with murderous size talons. What was completely useless was the maleceptor, who basically had no one to protect and sat on an objective. The big brick of warriors was fine (but BS4+ is incredibly stupid for an "elite" bug so the guns did VERY little) but I'm not sold on the point expense of putting the big guns on them.
I was low on board presence and actions - and if it wasn't for a big jump in points last turn I'd have totally been crushed.
So I haven't 100% given up on the dimas / heridule yet... but have given a bit of thought on the rest of the list... here's what it looks like now:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [102 PL, 11CP, 1,997pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems + Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: The horror, Power: Paroxym, Toxin Sacs, Wings . Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Onslaught, Power: Synaptic Lure, Toxin Sacs, Wings . Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size, Resonance Barb
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Onslaught, Warlord
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth Termagants [9 PL, 210pts] 30x Termagant (Devourer): 30x Devourer 3 Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 51pts] 2x scything talons 3 Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 78pts] Boneswords, Deathspitter 3 Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 78pts] Boneswords, Deathspitter
+ Elites +
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts] Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts] Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]
++ Total: [102 PL, 11CP, 1,998pts] ++
Now I have five units who are dedicated action monkeys when needed (who can put a bit of output for screen clearing), six if the devilgaunts get desperate. Another murderous size tyrant to put more pressure on the initial rush
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 16, 2021 8:15:02 GMT -5
Just to give you some raw-strategy thoughts of how I approached dealing with this list:
Looking at the list, I realized it's biggest weakness was lack of a can-opener for the Combat Threats, and so I could dictate what the Dima's could charge by screening and by removing the only screen-destroying threat on the overloaded flank of monsters (The Hierodule). So I targetted him Turn 1 and blew him away with Linked Fire + Bright Lances. I kind of made a mistake and should have targeted one of the Dima's with my Vibro Cannons since if a non-FLY unit takes damage from them they cannot advance until the start of my next turn. Which would have made it even easier to try and castle up with screens against them.
I was able to knock out both the Dimas on my 2nd turn because one had been softened up to ~10 wounds ish IIRC, but had to trade the Wraithseer, Shining Spears and Avatar in retaliation to do so, which left me without any further counter-charge threats to deal with the Hive Tyrant, and yeah, 6x S7 AP-4 DMG 4 attacks is just absolutely brutal. That murderous-size biomorph is absolutely worth it's weight in gold there. Similar to other really nasty survivable monsters like Morty, the 4++ invul is really the biggest thing. Sometimes you just roll a little hot on it and you survive what on paper you'd have no business sticking around through.
After having experienced the original list, I definitely agree the Warriors don't need Enhanced Resistance for this style of list, and Malceptor's strat doesn't work nearly as well when defending T7 monsters from S8/9 shooting, so he's better left on the bench for this style of list. I would worry this improved version still lacks a T1 can-opener and your opponent will be able to dictate what you can charge through positioning, but that might be something to consider in a future version after more testing games. Dual Murderous Size Kraken Hive Hyrants is going to absolutely demolish a battle line, and the fact they are cheaper than a Dimachaeron is crazy.
Here's a rough cut of my idea I briefly mentioned last night using Scythed Hierodules more fleshed out for your amusement using your updated list idea as a base:
This is sort of my hot-take on how to shoe-horn in some screen removal for your mental digestion (=P). The idea is that instead of double-Dima, you have a choice of 2 Tyrants and a Dima as your alpha-strike, and the double Scythed Heirodules and Warriors act as screen-removers so they can charge the good stuff instead of the screening unit(s). Since the Scythed Heirodules have 18" range (same as a Tfex) but get 3D6 shots instead of 2D6 shoot twice if stationary, it solves the Tfex problem of having to park in midfield for a turn before turning on the acid-firehose, not without tradeoffs of course, but they are able still very viable combat threats that don't mind pushing forward every turn while the bio-acid does it's job.
As always, everything above is just food for thought, feel free to disagree/hate-it/steal-it/etc. I have some potential changes of my own for my Craftworld's after the lessons learned from the game as well.
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