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Post by raceygaming on May 16, 2021 8:32:31 GMT -5
Can I ask how you screened out the dimachearons? Looking at battle reports they seem almost impossible to stop.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 16, 2021 9:11:46 GMT -5
mainly he went first, deployed very far back, and with high movement spread out even more. 12" move and double move from swarmlord is pretty damn fast, and the onslaught kraken is another very speedy monster, however if all the best targets are 36" away you have to get stuck in as quick as possible to trigger the FNP on the dimas (which even against elves did not happen ONCE!)
I also HAD to kill the wraithseer as turn one he dropped something like 15 wounds off the heridule just by himself. He was on fire and had to die ASAP!
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 16, 2021 9:28:15 GMT -5
Yeah, basically what I did was I knew the Dimas were coming straight at me, and I didn't leave enough room in my lines for the Dima to "leap" over into my important stuff. Wraithseer used the Vypers and a building to fill space, and I used my support weapons as a screen for my Fire Prism on that flank. The Dimas were going to have like 1" charges, but I was at least somewhat controlling what he would be allowed to declare charges against by preventing the ability to fit the base against the key targets.
TLDR: I sacrificed my Wraithseer, Vypers and Support Platforms, with the Wraithseer being the cheese-in-the-mouse-trap so my Shining Spears, Avatar, and Fire Prisms could blow them away in retaliation. Going first was unexpected, and allowed me to deal with the can-opener Heirodule that made the strategy work so well. It was the follow up by the Hive Tyrant that quite literally clawed the Nids back into the game.
As Shannon said as well, I also very importantly didn't use infantry as a screen (more through necessity than strategy through), as say a Guardian body would have given me very low odds of passing the "get eaten" test. It kinda helped I rolled well on both of them too. (I think _just_ passed both). The Vypers being Str 4 was super-critical as I passed by the skin of my teeth there. Also the fact that Vypers are 6 Wounds and Support Platforms are 5 wounds each made it a lot harder for him to trigger the ability, since the mortals have to deliver a killing blow.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 19, 2021 13:58:27 GMT -5
gave some more thought on the kraken list... I'm pretty convinced having little to no guns is a very, very bad idea.
so here's what I came up with for testing:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [103 PL, 11CP, 1,996pts] ++
Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 215pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Onslaught, Power: Synaptic Lure, Resonance Barb, Toxin Sacs, Wings Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm, Warlord
Tyranid Prime [5 PL, 84pts]: Deathspitter, Lash Whip and Bonesword
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Termagants [3 PL, 50pts] 10x Termagant (Fleshborer): 10x Fleshborer
8xTyranid Warriors [12 PL, 226pts] Boneswords + deathspitter, 2 have venom cannon+ boneswords
. Adaptive Physiology: Enhanced Resistance
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]
++ Total: [103 PL, 11CP, 1,996pts] ++
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 19, 2021 16:50:24 GMT -5
This version contains a Tyranid Prime, and is therefore absolutely unbeatable. Who wants to tell the competitive community they can all take a few months off since all competitive games will now be Tyranids vs Tyranids?
I heart Primey, he's the best.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 19, 2021 17:43:24 GMT -5
Yeah it's a terrible idea, but a big block of warriors hitting on 4's is just too frustrating.. so paying the 60 point tax over the 9th warrior has to equate to some efficiencies or the model goes back to being a warrior lol
Decided to magnetize the warrior kit I just built... Kind of overwhelming the amount of options!
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Post by voodoo on May 20, 2021 21:00:04 GMT -5
The dimas were the most expensive speedbumps ever. They stopped and damaged a knight enough to have a hive tyrant stop it dead.
If the dimas hadn't been there, I may have scored more primary points from the beginning; but the loss of my armigers sealed it. I just couldn't keep up with primary.
80 nids
69 chaos knights
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 21, 2021 6:16:48 GMT -5
Yeah I'm just not sold on the dimas... yet another game where literally all the points I scored in it were from all the models that were NOT forgeworld. Just not sold on 600 points of the list being expensive distraction carnifexes. I mean, I could have alot of actual distraction carnifexes for that lol
I'm scratching my head a bit on the kraken hivefleet. just shoving something up to die is really not an efficient use of the models.
The pair of dimas have killed exactly two models in three games - one wraithseer in one game, followed by one redemptor in another... Did they draw fire? well sure they did. I'm just not certain that's enough of a reason to include them over the other non-forgeworld stuff that draws fire!
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 22, 2021 6:48:22 GMT -5
okay... this is my once again refined look at kraken:
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [102 PL, 11CP, 1,997pts] ++Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 210pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Onslaught, Power: Synaptic Lure, Resonance Barb, Wings . Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 210pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Wings. Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm, Warlord
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 78pts] 3x. Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter
Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 78pts] 3x. Tyranid Warrior: Boneswords, Deathspitter
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
+ Heavy Support +
Barbed Hierodule [14 PL, 275pts]
++ Total: [102 PL, 11CP, 1,997pts] ++
But I thought you weren't impressed with dimas? yeah but I couldn't find anything else that did their job better for the same points. If they blarg forward and create pressure that's not a horrible use of 460 points. Looked at other choices and couldn't find anything to take that role, and kraken is all about putting pressure on the opponent.
But some other changes to the list allowed me to put in another murderous size tyrant. They're a pretty decent problem solver and with some strat support can do some work in combat - and most importantly benefit from obscuring so don't normally bite the dust turn one.
warriors turn into a couple 3 man units for backfield objectives and synapse that are JUST dangerous enough that light units don't want to engage them on the objectives. Plus they can do scramblers, throw a few deathspitter shots downfield for screens and more importantly, countercharge things that want to tag the hive guard.
I can run scramblers and engage for secondaries rather easily - third gives WWSWF as an option (hive guard, heridule and swarmlord) probably most vulnerable is the heridule, but I can count on 10 at least. In certain matchups swarmy could even be a pretty safe bet for psychic ritual once he's done slingshotting the dimas.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 31, 2021 9:41:13 GMT -5
well with the new point changes the swarmlord went DOWN 30 inexplicably... but the dimas went UP 20 each so I've got to free up minimum 7 points to make it legal.
I'll likely drop the adrenal glands off the tyrants to make it legal. I don't WANT to... but everything is trimmed down pretty tight.
other option is dropping upgrades on the warriors...
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Post by voodoo on May 31, 2021 9:56:56 GMT -5
I'd honestly drop the dimas. They're a big distraction carnifex, but they just die so easily! I'd honestly drop the dimas, add in a 3rd flyrant and beef up the warriors; or add in a gaunt bomb. In all of our games, they typically do VERY well for themselves.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 31, 2021 10:10:05 GMT -5
Dimas went up 25 each, not 20. You'll need to trim 17 points to keep it legal, and the glands only net you 10. You'd need to strip the warriors of some tools, because I don't see any other droppable upgrades to keep it legal.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 31, 2021 11:37:03 GMT -5
yup you're right... 25...
I think I might actually retool without the heridule the more I think about it. I haven't had that thing perform well once. He's more expensive than six hive guard (who have a similar 12 shot AP-2 S8 gun and the same wounds, BUT ignore LOS, and benefit from obscuring and their gun ignores cover and they can be symbiostormed)
And I cannot make a third flyrant with monstrous size - limit of two total per army (as you can only take 2 adaptive physiologies in an army - and it costs you your warlord trait and an additional CP to do it cuz reasons)
hmmmm trade the heridule for a third dima? That would be... like a flat trade with swarmy's discount.
I mean stopping three dimas ain't that easy. Especially when two of them can first turn charge.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 2, 2021 20:07:07 GMT -5
So here's the new kraken list with the point changes (the leviathan list actually doesn't change as nothing in that list got a point change).
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids) [100 PL, 11CP, 1,952pts] ++ Hive Fleet: Kraken
+ Stratagems +Progeny of the Hive [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 210pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Onslaught, Power: Synaptic Lure, Resonance Barb, Wings Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
Hive Tyrant [11 PL, 210pts]: 2x Monstrous Scything Talons, Adrenal Glands, Power: Psychic Scream, Power: The Horror, Wings Adaptive Physiology: Murderous Size
The Swarmlord [14 PL, 270pts]: Power: Catalyst, Power: Paroxysm, Warlord
+ Troops +
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
Ripper Swarms [2 PL, 36pts] 3x Ripper Swarm: 3x Claws and Teeth
3 Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 78pts] Boneswords, Deathspitter
3 Tyranid Warriors [4 PL, 78pts] Boneswords, Deathspitter
+ Elites +
Hive Guard [12 PL, 270pts] 6x Hive Guard (Impaler): 6x Impaler Cannon
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
Lictor [2 PL, 37pts]
+ Fast Attack +
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
Dimachaeron [12 PL, 230pts]
++ Total: [100 PL, 11CP, 1,952pts] ++
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