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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 31, 2021 8:19:17 GMT -5
yeah only change to boyz is T5... but those beast snagga boys being S5 T5 and a 6+ invul seems pretty nice... especially with the change to choppas
*slaps hand* NO, you do NOT need another xenos army, paint your stuff first!
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Post by Malarks on May 31, 2021 8:19:32 GMT -5
Their Strength hasn't changed since 8th. They were 4S/4T. Choppas get -1AP (Shootas are rendered completely irrelevant, now) Beast Snagga troops are S5/T5 Apparently everything gets +1T (even Gretchin)
I am still not sold that this will be a big change for their survivability... But I am bitter and jaded... This will result in an average reduction of losses by about %20, right? (vs S4 -1AP 1D attacks, at least. I understand this to be the average sort of attack, these days?)
Blah blah blah, piss and moan, gripe and complain. Thomas is a crybaby.
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Post by trantos01 on May 31, 2021 8:28:36 GMT -5
Though that means the Ork boy swarms are going to be even more ubiquitous. And they're going to be even more of a nightmare to deal with (Unstoppable Green Tide and all that) because the overwhelming majority of high volume infantry weapons (because you need infantry to swarm objective points)aside form Firewarriors (their guns are s5 I think) are S3 or S4.
I got my Tesla immortals but all of a sudden the warrior swarm can only kill these things on 5s, which is not enough to stop them before they hit my lines (at which point the opponent rolls a bucket of dice and everything dies).
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 31, 2021 9:16:18 GMT -5
I'd take a 20% survivability boost on any one of my armies. That is downright amazing.
bloodcrushers are T4... so an ork boy is now tougher than they are. Yeah, I'd take that +1 toughness any day! (khorne might be... playable!)
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Post by voodoo on May 31, 2021 9:29:50 GMT -5
Yep, T5 is pretty nice. Orc boys are now tougher than space marines, which is pretty nice. Bolters wounding you on 5's instead of 4's? Hells yeah. That change will remove 17% of incoming wounds from bolters and other S4 shots, going from 50% wound rate to a 33%. I'd take those odds any day.
Plus, we're seeing one very narrow change from an entire book of rules; to say that it's no good, is similar to when DG players en masse whined and moaned about the changes to Disgustingly Resilient; yet, Death Guard are still one of the toughest armies out there.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 31, 2021 9:34:15 GMT -5
Plus, we're seeing one very narrow change from an entire book of rules; to say that it's no good, is similar to when DG players en masse whined and moaned about the changes to Disgustingly Resilient; yet, Death Guard are still one of the toughest armies out there. Quoted for emphasis. We have almost zero other context how deep the changes to Orks goes at this point. The reveal stream directly said that Orks have been reconstructed from the ground up, similar to Necrons and others who needed total reworks. Until we have book-in-hand, we have no idea what new orks will be like, so don't judge/react too much yet.
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Post by Malarks on May 31, 2021 9:54:00 GMT -5
I just have so little confidence in anything, anymore...
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Post by lightcavalier on May 31, 2021 10:43:07 GMT -5
Yep, T5 is pretty nice. Orc boys are now tougher than space marines, which is pretty nice. Bolters wounding you on 5's instead of 4's? Hells yeah. That change will remove 17% of incoming wounds from bolters and other S4 shots, going from 50% wound rate to a 33%. I'd take those odds any day. Plus, we're seeing one very narrow change from an entire book of rules; to say that it's no good, is similar to when DG players en masse whined and moaned about the changes to Disgustingly Resilient; yet, Death Guard are still one of the toughest armies out there. Ork Boys become T5....laughs in rapid fire poisoned weapons
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 31, 2021 11:30:51 GMT -5
well yeah, if you include Drukhari no one are resilient... lol...
and orks are already a strong book (still putting up GT placings this far into 9th with an 8th ed book - not many 8th ed books are doing that right now!) so given the quality of the 9th books thus far, I'm sure they'll be pretty damn solid, because they don't need that much to be top tier right now.
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Post by lightcavalier on May 31, 2021 13:41:14 GMT -5
well yeah, if you include Drukhari no one are resilient... lol... and orks are already a strong book (still putting up GT placings this far into 9th with an 8th ed book - not many 8th ed books are doing that right now!) so given the quality of the 9th books thus far, I'm sure they'll be pretty damn solid, because they don't need that much to be top tier right now. 100% I do have to say that I thematically like the change.....if marines are goign to be T4 w 2W...then it toally makes sense for a giant fungus ork that is basically immune to pain to be T5 (instead of saying giving them a 6+++ shrug or something that would bog the game down) It lets them still be a horde, but w the 6+ save means that so long as you wound them, they are probably dying.
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Post by Malarks on May 31, 2021 14:32:33 GMT -5
6+ saves may as well not even be a thing.
Would I be wrong in assuming that weapons without AP are most likely going to be infantry/horde stuff or weak things like pistols? So even a 6+ is likely not going to be enough, when weight of dice is factored. I also assume them to have low S, as well (though, even S4 on Shootas is not enough to offset the lack of AP, for example)
I need to just take a break from life the internet... Nothing but negativity comes out of me...
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Post by voodoo on Jun 1, 2021 5:42:10 GMT -5
If you want Orks to be a good toughness AND have good weapons AND have good saves then just play a marine army.
Orks going up in toughness is a solid improvement, they've always had crappy armor because... Orks. If you change them to be the equivalent of a Space Marine in armor and weapons, wounds, etc.; then you'll be paying the points for those models because at that point they will in essence be a green space marine. (No, not you Salamanders, sit down!)
I will reiterate, this is a single change from a book that is not yet out. Who would have guessed that Liquifier spam would have been the meta-breaking ridiculousness that it is nowadays before the Dark Eldar book came out? That's right, no one. Shut up and wait for the book, because if there's something we've learned from every 9th ed codex to date; is that GW hasn't shit the bed yet. Every single book has some tools to get the job done.
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Post by question on Jun 1, 2021 6:46:05 GMT -5
Voodoo, I don't usually get a laugh before 8 am on a work day so thank you for the above. Subtle as always. And I agree with you. As for orks, not many have played them as long as I have. While they have needed some tweaks for a while, I also have not desire to play another green marine army. So everybody sit tight and just wait. Rampant / rabid speculation has nearly destroyed our southern neighbours in the last 6 years, so let's not repeat that nonsensical bullshit in our own little community.
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 1, 2021 9:18:55 GMT -5
With T5 base infantry (assume all orks get there) there starts to become a more narrow gap for differentiating models roles. Here is my thinking:
Ork boyz - Currently T4 S4 8pts, good all rounders not crazy point effective for killing but can play objective pretty well. Going to T5 I have to assume there will be a point increase 9-10 pts.
Snagga Boyz - S5 T5 ??pts , focused on monsters and vehicles but at S5 will do all infantry as well. If you price these guys too high everyone takes normal boyz, if you price them too low and no one will look at normal boyz again.
Nobz - These are just beast snagga with less special rules and more special weapons, current S5 T4 at 14 pts
These 3 units are already getting pretty close to stepping on each other toes in terms of roles in the army. Hoping to see something cool like buffs based on support options or army composition factions. aka Beast Snagga limit vehicle options. There is a lot of codex left to be revealed (99%) but with T5 it does feel like if things are price balanced then you can't go wrong with infantry which does feel very orky.
T5 does feel pretty good!
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 7, 2021 7:56:03 GMT -5
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