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Post by voodoo on Jun 7, 2021 20:42:57 GMT -5
If Lasher Tendrils are +10 points then I'll guess they got an improved profile. Maybe a slap and sweep profile, or double attacks, or something. The Death Guard Defiler is 165 while the CSM one is 135, to account for the statline improvement. Same with the Sons version; but they're bristling with guns, so that didn't surprise me in the least.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 17, 2021 7:23:16 GMT -5
Going to be trying out this version tonight on TTS: (and yes, the daemon version would have been superior ) ++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [32 PL, 9CP, 652pts] ++Detachment Command Cost [-2CP]Legion: Black Legion + Stratagems + Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]+ HQ +Abaddon the Despoiler [11 PL, 220pts]Daemon Prince with Wings [10 PL, 200pts]: Delightful Agonies, Malefic talon, The Rapacious Talons, Wings. Slaanesh + Troops +Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: Mark of Slaanesh. 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun Cultist Champion: Autogun Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 90pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun. 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades . Marine w/ heavy or special weapon: Reaper chaincannon + Fast Attack +Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 46pts]: Mark of Slaanesh. 2x Chaos Spawn: 2x Hideous mutations Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 46pts]: Mark of Slaanesh. 2x Chaos Spawn: 2x Hideous mutations ++ Patrol Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [41 PL, 823pts] ++Legion: Word Bearers + HQ +Lord Discordant on Helstalker [10 PL, 200pts]: 6. Sacrilegious Regeneration, Baleflamer, Crown of the Blasphemer, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord . Helstalker: Techno-virus injector Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mark of Slaanesh + Troops +Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 90pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades . Marine w/ heavy or special weapon: Reaper chaincannon + Elites + Terminators [8 PL, 160pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Power axe . Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe . Terminator Champion: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw + Heavy Support +Havocs [7 PL, 138pts]: Mark of Slaanesh. Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Combi-bolter . 2x Havoc w/ heavy bolter: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Heavy bolter . 2x Havoc w/ lascannon: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Lascannon Maulerfiend [7 PL, 140pts]: 2x Magma cutter, No Chaos Mark ++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [27 PL, -1CP, 525pts] ++Legion: Word Bearers + Lord of War +Greater Brass Scorpion [27 PL, 525pts]++ Total: [100 PL, 8CP, 2,000pts] ++
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 24, 2021 9:43:54 GMT -5
So after two test games (both wins for the csm version of the list) I've come to a few initial conclusions:
- the scorpion is actually pretty decent. He was no where near worth it at his earlier price point of 650 points (seriously) however at 525 he's a giant fire magnet that lives longer than you'd think with cursed earth in effect.
- disco-lord is very good... healing 1+D3 wounds a turn with 13 wounds and a 2+/4++ (3++ in cursed earth range) is pretty damn survivable. He has a lot of attacks which unfortunately do not dig out of necron warriors very well, but I think he'd do better against other targets lol
- Havocs are kinda "meh". I'm not sure what I was expecting, but a couple lascannon shots don't really do a whole hell of a lot. The heavy bolters did more actual damage in both games I had (although last night they did kill a menhir of the silent king turn 1 - sadly did nothing else of note for the rest of the game) so I think they need more testing but I'm unsure of the loadout.
- terminators are cheap, drop in and hurt things and pretty survivable. Sure they then draw firepower and die, but I'm not totally mad about it. I might even trim some further points off them as drop melta is fine, but not really necessary for their role.
- spawn are surprisingly useful. Decent move, T5 and 8 wounds a squad is fine. Mostly they were grabbing me engage points, and screening, but they are useful and dirt cheap at 46 points a squad.
- abbadon sadly just doesn't appear to work in this list. He's a lot of points, for an okay infantry brawler with some buffs for nearby black legion, but black legion is pretty "meh" currently and I don't have a lot of it. If he was a supreme commander and didn't cost me CP to essentially bring him (everything else fits fine in a single battalion) it'd be different. But in the current list he doesn't really do what I want him to.
What I want to do about it:
dropping abbadon from the list frees up a whopping 220 points and adds 2 CP by combining the rest into a battalion. I have a couple different ideas about what to use those points for. I know I don't want to add more HQ or troops (the csm troops are pretty poor, and I'm full up on the HQ choices)
1) I'm word bearers so leave the 220 points for summoning. dropping two melta guns would give me enough points to drop a keeper of secrets on the table as an additional threat. sadly cannot make it exalted through summons so this isn't as good as a keeper in a daemon list, but it's double the wounds of abby, double his speed, an additional caster and deadlier in combat. Alternatively dropping down 220 points of nurglings on the table certainly shores up the primary game. As thematic as having a bloodthirster drop out of the skies to join his brass scorpion of khorne with killing stuff, thirsters aren't necessarily that good at killing stuff... or surviving... but rule of cool and word bearers and all that.... plus the dark pact word bearers strat allows me to reroll the dice used in the summoning roll and the character doesn't suffer the mortals for doubles/triples.
2) Add another combat threat like another maulerfiend or another unit of terminators and something else that can do actions. Bare bones terminators are pretty cheap for csm, and also capable of dropping in and doing actions, grabbing objectives, etc. so another unit of them with the spare points isn't a terrible idea. 5 terminators with meltas + another unit of cultists would be abby's points.
3) add some decent shooting threats. I do have this contemptor painted up... costs me a cp and they're not fantastic, but they're another shooting option which I lack. Forgefiend or more havocs is another possibility but I'm honestly not super excited about either choice. same as a couple of obliterators (105 points a model seems pretty damn high for what they do - and not a whole lot more survivable than a unit of terminators other than the T5 and 6 wounds for a pair vs. T4 and 10 wounds for a unit for significantly less points!)
thoughts?
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 24, 2021 10:05:13 GMT -5
I find that the loyalist version of Havocs (Long Fangs) do really great work when kitted out with Quad Heavy Bolters. 4 Heavy Bolters is nothing to sneeze at, and is way down most people's priority list so can survive into late-game and really put in work. I'm not sure if CSM have the same strat (I think it's called Hellfire Shells for loyalists?) to turn one of the Heavy Bolters into a long-range-targetable Smite, it's very useful utility to have if you just need to knock the last wound or two off a key target imo.
Of the changes you listed, #3 stands out to me as objectively the best choice. Screen clearance and being able to soften up targets before they get charged seems like a good value-add to me. Honestly a couple Oblits or a Forgefiend both sound like excellent choices to me.
The summoning option is cool and narrative, but it's total crap, you'd need to roll what? A 12 on 3D6 or something? That's like ~38% chance or something with rough-head-math I think? No thanks.
If you didn't go with option 3, I'd lean into option 2 and add a bunch more Chaos Spawn. If you want a fast threat that doesn't need or care about support you can just throw away, spawn are so cheap and so good it's criminal imo. They get S/T 5, W4 and D6 Attacks on a disposable unit that will cause huge problems for enemy troops-choices trying to stick to objectives.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 24, 2021 10:22:06 GMT -5
The strat for summoning allows rerolling of the dice because it's word bearers though... If I want to start dropping nurglings on the board it's guaranteed with no risk of mortals.
bringing in a greater daemon requires 12 on three dice with a reroll. Not insanely difficult, average on 3 dice is 10... the reroll makes it average a little higher. I've rolled enough D&D characters to be cool with the odds on rolling a 12 if I get to reroll. Not sure a greater daemon is really needed, again other than cool factor.
Switching the havocs to heavy bolters only might be decent... getting a little thin on anti-tank though... and the scorpion has my screen clearing pretty much locked in... I mean what else are you using a 15 shot S5 one damage gun for? Sure aint tanks! lol His double S8 AP-2 flamers also wreck screens. If I drop the lascannons I have one gun in the entire army that's S8... that's it!
oblits are essentially 105 point loyalist terminators with random six shot guns. If they were maybe 80 points sure I'd risk it... but that is a LOT of points for a unit that is more random than the melta termies it would replace at significantly more cost. Option 3 is my least efficient option unfortunately, but that's more of a reflection of the current dex than anything else. But I mean, thus far literally anything would have contributed more than abbadon, so I shouldn't get so picky lol
The csm strat can work on a bolter, so gives an option for the boltgun wielding champ in the havoc squad for sure.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 25, 2021 8:11:07 GMT -5
Ok, having re-looked at summoning + word bearers it seems not completely terrible unlike regular summoning, reroll-any-number-of-dice certainly makes rolling above average much easier, especially if you can get a high number to lock in, and pushes the odds of a 12+ sum to around the ~60% mark.
I still don't know if I like it, this list has a ton of combat presence already and I really think two Oblits would really add a lot to this list. Oblits are significantly tougher than termies at T5 W4 2+/5++, but I agree they are overcosted for what you get and how random they are, but they can really put in work and provide some weapon diversity, and are cheap enough you can keep your drop-melta on the termies, giving you the Scorpion's Flamers and Demolisher Cannon, Combi meltas, Fleshmetal guns, and Magma Cutters all for doing anti-vehicle work in the shooting phase.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 25, 2021 23:09:02 GMT -5
some adjustments...
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [27 PL, -1CP, 525pts] ++
Legion: Word Bearers
+ Lord of War +
Greater Brass Scorpion [27 PL, 525pts]
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [75 PL, 11CP, 1,472pts] ++
Legion: Word Bearers
+ Stratagems +Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince [8 PL, 165pts]: Malefic talon, The Rapacious Talons, Warptime Slaanesh
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [10 PL, 195pts]: 6. Sacrilegious Regeneration, Autocannon, Crown of the Blasphemer, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, No Chaos Mark
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: No Chaos Mark . 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 80pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades . Marine w/ heavy or special weapon: Heavy bolter
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 80pts]: No Chaos Mark . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun . 3x Marine w/ boltgun: 3x Bolt pistol, 3x Boltgun, 3x Frag & Krak grenades . Marine w/ heavy or special weapon: Heavy bolter
+ Elites +
Terminators [8 PL, 155pts]: No Chaos Mark . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Power axe . Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe . Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Terminators [8 PL, 155pts]: No Chaos Mark . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Power axe . Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe . Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
+ Fast Attack +
Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 46pts]: No Chaos Mark 2x Chaos Spawn: 2x Hideous mutations Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 46pts]: No Chaos Mark 2x Chaos Spawn: 2x Hideous mutations
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 125pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun . 4x Havoc w/ heavy bolter: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy bolter Maulerfiend [7 PL, 140pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh Maulerfiend [7 PL, 140pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Slaanesh
++ Total: [102 PL, 10 CP, 1,997pts] ++
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Post by voodoo on Jun 26, 2021 8:02:23 GMT -5
I feel like the double maulers will do a TON of work for you. Far more than Abby, that's for damn sure.
Really, all of the changes make sense; and will synergize with each other much better.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 26, 2021 8:49:25 GMT -5
I'm pretty happy with it (had to play in battlescribe for quite a bit lol) but we'll see what happens if it faces true tank wall or "eep" knights!
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 26, 2021 10:07:20 GMT -5
It has a very satisfying symmetry to it. Very much 'organized chaos'.... =P
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Post by Typhus on Jun 26, 2021 15:13:49 GMT -5
I'm a little curious as to the rationale of the Chaos Marks - aside from the Havocs, who want Endless Cacophony, and the Daemon Prince who wants to bear the Rapacious Talons, I'm not sure why anything has the Mark of Slaanesh - in a Dark Eldar world, it seems like it's just a liability.
Generally speaking, I would recommend MoS if they're going to use Endless Cacophony or receive Delightful Agonies, MoK if they're going to use Fury of Khorne or need an Icon of Wrath, MoT if they're a psyker for access to Great Sorcerer, and MoN otherwise - there are quite a few Nurgle/DG abilities that don't affect you if you have the Nurgle keyword.
I would probably also recommend a single 10-man Terminator unit rather than two units of 5, but that's just me trying to stretch the value of buffs and stratagems.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 26, 2021 21:02:12 GMT -5
honestly don't know much about chaos marks... thought the prince's aura only works on other slaanesh + legion much like daemons, but seems to be all legion benefits so that really doesn't help. Also misread the charge strat - thought it was for all slaanesh but it's only emperor's children, so that really doesn't help either.
here's the adjusted list... icon of wrath seems like a good thing for the termies so that they can drop in and reroll charges. It's not like the csm are doing much other than action monkeys and objectives anyways.
++ Super-Heavy Auxiliary Detachment -1CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [27 PL, -1CP, 525pts] ++
Legion: Word Bearers
+ Lord of War +
Greater Brass Scorpion [27 PL, 525pts]
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Chaos - Chaos Space Marines) [75 PL, 11CP, 1,472pts] ++
Legion: Word Bearers
+ Stratagems Gifts of Chaos (1 Relic) [-1CP]
+ HQ +
Daemon Prince [8 PL, 165pts]: Malefic talon, The Rapacious Talons, Warptime. Slaanesh
Lord Discordant on Helstalker [10 PL, 195pts]: 6. Sacrilegious Regeneration, Autocannon, Crown of the Blasphemer, Mark of Slaanesh, Warlord. Helstalker: Techno-virus injector
Master of Possession [5 PL, 95pts]: Cursed Earth, Infernal Power, Mark of Tzeentch
+ Troops +
Chaos Cultists [3 PL, 50pts]: No Chaos Mark 9x Chaos Cultist w/ Autogun: 9x Autogun. Cultist Champion: Autogun
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 70pts]: Mark of Nurgle . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun. 4x Marine w/ boltgun: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
Chaos Space Marines [4 PL, 70pts]: Mark of Nurgle . Aspiring Champion: Bolt pistol, Boltgun. 4x Marine w/ boltgun: 4x Bolt pistol, 4x Boltgun, 4x Frag & Krak grenades
+ Elites +
Terminators [8 PL, 165pts]: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Power axe . Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe . Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
Terminators [8 PL, 165pts]: Icon of Wrath, Mark of Khorne . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Lightning Claw . Terminator: Combi-melta, Power axe . Terminator: Combi-bolter, Power axe . Terminator Champion: Combi-bolter, Lightning Claw
+ Fast Attack +
Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 46pts]: Mark of Nurgle. 2x Chaos Spawn: 2x Hideous mutations Chaos Spawn [2 PL, 46pts]: Mark of Nurgle. 2x Chaos Spawn: 2x Hideous mutations
+ Heavy Support +
Havocs [7 PL, 125pts]: Mark of Slaanesh . Aspiring Champion: Astartes chainsword, Boltgun 4x Havoc w/ heavy bolter: 4x Frag & Krak grenades, 4x Heavy bolter
Maulerfiend [7 PL, 140pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Nurgle Maulerfiend [7 PL, 140pts]: Lasher tendrils, Mark of Nurgle
++ Total: [102 PL, 10CP, 1,997pts] ++
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