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Post by sean on Jun 19, 2023 20:46:06 GMT -5
To say it right off the top, Fate Dice and Devastating wounds is stupidly broken. But I do think that if that was changed (Fate Dice not counting as an "unmodified roll") Aeldari would be in a fine place, like maybe still too good, but not just table your opponent Turn 2, regardless of anything else, levels of stupid.
So leaving the Wraith Knights on the shelf, where they have been for 2 editions already. Here is a list showcasing some interesting units that actually play the game. Lots of Characters buffing units, but you sort of need them to get the units to function.
Asurmen (1) - 120pts Dire Avengers (10) - 140pts
Autarch Wayleaper (1) - 80 +15= 95pts Warlord Weeping stone Enhancement
Death Jester (1) - 70pts
Eldrad Ulthran (1) - 100pts Guardian Defenders (11) - 110pts
Farseer Skyrunner (1) - 75pts Windriders (9) - 240pts
Fire Prism x 2 - 250pts
Shroud Runners (3) - 80pts
Spiritseer (1) - 65pts Wraithblades (10) - 340pts
War Walkers (1) - 95pts
Warp Spiders (5) - 100pts
Wave Serpent (1) - 120pts
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 19, 2023 21:50:31 GMT -5
cool list. Very strong, but Eldar are in a really good place right now. Should be cool.
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 19, 2023 21:53:29 GMT -5
It's not 3x wraith knight 3x d-cannon so it can have a pass.
Until we see a cap on fate dice per model or phase eldar will be the front runners of 10th
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Post by sean on Jun 20, 2023 5:34:32 GMT -5
Until we see a cap on fate dice per model or phase eldar will be the front runners of 10th I really think the whole Devastating Wounds mechanic needs to be looked at more than Fate Dice. If devastating wounds only happened ever happened on a natural 6, and before any re-rolls or dice that “count as an unmodified 6” I think that goes a huge way towards curbing the worst abuses.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 20, 2023 6:08:48 GMT -5
I'm not so sure about fate dice being godlike power. The 10th version is much more scaled back than the 9th one.
Remember, new fate dice you get 12 for the whole game, and they aren't all 6s, they are rolled. While the farseer can sub one to an unmodified six once a turn, unless you can rock a Yahtzee on that initial fate dice roll you'll only have a precious few sixes.
Eldar certainly got a lot of devastating wounds love, but we've had the "magic happens on 6s" since 3rd edition. It's certainly a strong mechanic but with new fate dice giving you maybe 1-2 unmodified sixes a turn to work with, not 6-7 like 9th, I'm not sure we're the boogeyman again.
List does have a LOT of characters, I think you'll find you'll have to cut one or two of them for some more units but it's a good testbed to see what's going to work.
I'm also not sure if fire prisms need to be run in pairs or trios anymore, linked fire is pretty cool but it's not required to be effective anymore.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 20, 2023 6:22:03 GMT -5
it's fate dice combined with devastating wounds that is the problem, not fate dice inherently, as it's essentially giving Eldar 9th edition miracle dice.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 20, 2023 6:51:34 GMT -5
Oh I agree the combo is super potent, but I'm saying you might only be able to be able to do that on a few rolls per game as opposed to several times per turn.
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 20, 2023 8:03:27 GMT -5
I mean I think the Dev combo is the big feels bad moment for a lot of people since it just picks something up. I guess my thought process is that it makes tough things crazy.
Here is my thinking 12 dice assuming 2 of each 1,2,3,4,5,6 - farseer turn 1/per turn so really by turn 5 the player will have 3,4,4,5,5,6,6,6,6,6,6,6.
MOST list that I have been able to build have 8-12 anti big shots that might serious deal some damage to a target and not nickle and dime them. With cover being absolutely every where most tanks even vs ap -3 will get a 5+ so you free block any amount of damage 9 times over the game. With many guns only wounding on 5+ on the big targets (without Oath re-rolls) in any given turn you are getting 3-4 big shots through and then fate dice.
The Avatar is literally unkillable for 3 turns if you don't want it to die and the other side doesn't have enough mortals. The Yncarne is unkillable for 3 turns if you don't want it to die. Wraithknight with shield can't be killed. Heck even a wave serpent at T9 is going to be crazy hard to kill unless they have a ton of S9.
Example 20 meltas on 3s = 12.5 hits , wounds on 5+ = 4 wounds , even with 1 wound left you can just say nope and that serpent and every inside is safe here are 3x5+ and a flipped 6.
All you need is 1-2 turns where the key target doesn't die and the snowball effect takes over. Turn 2 you only have 10 melts left since they were a big target, turn 3 only 5, etc and now each flipped 6 is that much stronger since they may only be getting 1 shot through a turn.
At least that's the problem I see with stacking fate. Sure with Dev Wounds you can do a billion mortals but lots of things can kill things, but just choosing not to take damage is incredible.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 20, 2023 8:38:38 GMT -5
According to the art of war guys eldar is above s-tier and the best army in the game, slightly ahead of tsons (aeldari was their only army that could beat tsons)
They gave a bunch of reasoning similar to what Jordan did above.
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 20, 2023 8:40:26 GMT -5
According to the art of war guys eldar is above s-tier and the best army in the game, slightly ahead of tsons (aeldari was their only army that could beat tsons) They gave a bunch of reasoning similar to what Jordan did above. Glad to hear I'm not super crazy.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 20, 2023 9:05:31 GMT -5
I agree it's very strong. I guess if you build a list tailored to exploiting the mechanic and your dice are good to you then yeah it'll be super devastating.
Art of war and Nick Navanti always push lists that remove rng from the game because that's his playstyle, so I'm not quite ready to say the sky is falling until I've tested it myself.
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Jun 20, 2023 9:14:01 GMT -5
Removing RNG completely is a fantastically powerful tool in a game like this where so much of what you do ends up coming down to the dice rolls. Most factions are at best limited to mitigating RNG, so it's hard to overstate how powerful of a tool that is!
Also, 125 point fire prisms embarrass the entire Imperial arsenal - very spooki indeed.
Pretty solid list though I think it will provide a very good litmus for the type of performance you can expect out of Eldar in general sans just cherrypicking the nastiest combination of profiles.
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Post by sean on Jun 20, 2023 21:36:54 GMT -5
In regards to fate dice for saves, which I agree is its second most useful role after spamming tons of mortal wounds, is it really any different than Sisters miracle dice? I honestly don't know how that mechanic is working now.
But I feel like your example was a bit of a straw man, in that meltas just aren't really that good anymore. But against something with a high volume of shots and say "Anti- Vehicle 4+" those fate dice aren't going to do you much good.
Also we will have to see if vehicles ever get cover saves, as the requirement to be "wholly within" is pretty tough to manage.
I really liked the 40K Fireside podcast "Critique of 10th edition", for highlighting all the Core issue rules.
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Post by distractedcarnifex on Jun 20, 2023 21:57:46 GMT -5
This Edition release feels like a big (and rushed) Beta test?
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Post by Typhus on Jun 20, 2023 21:58:17 GMT -5
In regards to fate dice for saves, which I agree is its second most useful role after spamming tons of mortal wounds, is it really any different than Sisters miracle dice? I honestly don't know how that mechanic is working now. Acts of Faith are once per unit per phase. Sisters also generate substantially fewer Miracle Dice in the early game, making their defensive usage much more questionable - Eldar generally are aiming to start with 15. Sisters start with 1. Also we will have to see if vehicles ever get cover saves, as the requirement to be "wholly within" is pretty tough to manage. Most terrain features provide the Benefit of Cover if the target unit is not fully visible to the attacker - it's hard not to get, on a proper board.
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