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Post by Broadcastle on Sept 9, 2024 15:35:24 GMT -5
Hey Everyone,
I had a great time at the teams tournament on the weekend like everyone at the tournament seemed to have!
I did a bit of a self recap for the tournament and one of the things that I’m not sure if I was getting right or wrong was how ruins and visibility interacted, so I was hoping you all could help clarify this for me and point me in the direction of where I’m missing something.
In the Visibility section of the Ruins rules it says the following
“Models cannot see over or through this terrain feature (i.e. a unit outside this terrain feature cannot draw line of sight to a target on the other side of it, even if it would be possible to draw line of sight to that target through open windows, doors, etc). Aircraft models are exceptions to this – visibility to and from such models is determined normally, even if this terrain feature is wholly in between them and the observing model. Models can see into this terrain feature normally, and models that are wholly within this terrain feature can see out of it normally. Models that are within this terrain feature can be seen normally and towering models that are within this terrain feature can also see out of it normally”
My understanding of this is that if you have any model (ex. An intercessor) that is wholly within the footprint they can shoot out of it and be shot out of it. However if that intercessor is just toeing onto the footprint he is able to be shot at however as he is not wholly within the terrain feature he would not be able to shoot. So a vehicle can shoot from within terrain, however it would have to be wholly within the terrain to do so which is very difficult given the sizes of the models.
A model with the towering keyword would be safe from being shot if it is behind the terrain, as models cannot see over or through the terrain feature, however if it toes into the ruin it would be able to both see out of it and be shot as well.
All of the games that I played we would count any model toeing into the ruin as being able to shoot through it even if it was not wholly within which I believe is incorrect if I am interpreting that rule correctly. It worked for the tournament with everyone following the same understanding, and I wanted to see if there was another rule somewhere that contradicted this or if that was correct?
Let me know your thoughts!
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Post by Typhus on Sept 9, 2024 15:50:00 GMT -5
You are correct - a model must be wholly on or within a terrain feature to see out.
A (non-Towering) model can be seen within terrain, and not see out, if they "toe in" as it were. At this point, Towering is basically just an allowance to toe into terrain, as in 9th edition.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 9, 2024 16:16:48 GMT -5
I learnt this during this weekend... used to be you could touch terrain to shoot through it with big monsters... but no more. Means putting more than just ruins on the table is pretty important or vehicles/monsters can't really shoot otherwise (as they cannot enter ruins)
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Post by raceygaming on Sept 9, 2024 16:48:20 GMT -5
Ya the wholly within/on is the official ruling and when played on GW, WTC and ITC tournament tables they make a ton of sense, for example all building foot prints in WTC are 6×12" and kevin and rick provided GW boards with rather large footprint. You can park 2 tanks in there and be fine.
With some of the terrain that is probably coming up on 20 yrs old, foot prints didn't really exist and toe-in rule exception does help to keep them playable. It is similar to how pretty much every pieces of terrain should have obscuring.
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Post by Typhus on Sept 9, 2024 19:08:31 GMT -5
Means putting more than just ruins on the table is pretty important or vehicles/monsters can't really shoot otherwise (as they cannot enter ruins) Monsters can absolutely enter ruins. Monsters/Vehicles (apart from those which can fly) can enter a ruin, but only on the ground floor. The rule in question: "INFANTRY, IMPERIUM PRIMARCH, BELISARIUS CAWL, BEASTS and FLY models can be set up or end a move on any floor level of this terrain feature, but if that level is not the ground floor, such models can only do so if their base does not overhang the floor at that level. All other models can only be set up or end a move on the ground floor of this terrain feature." I've got a few sets of MDF GW tournament-sized terrain footprints. I'd be happy to provide plenty for any tournament, and have the Nexus terrain staged on top of it to allow for models with big bases/bodies to have a better chance of getting wholly within the terrain. And I think most of us are cool if the model is just a little too big to fit completely inside. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 9, 2024 20:42:17 GMT -5
But only infantry and beast models can move through the wall... so I'm not sure how a monster can get IN a ruin then!
Unless you're playing with only ruins with the backs totally open, then I guess the monster has to back up to get out lol
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Post by raceygaming on Sept 9, 2024 20:45:34 GMT -5
Means putting more than just ruins on the table is pretty important or vehicles/monsters can't really shoot otherwise (as they cannot enter ruins) Monsters can absolutely enter ruins. Monsters/Vehicles (apart from those which can fly) can enter a ruin, but only on the ground floor. The rule in question: "INFANTRY, IMPERIUM PRIMARCH, BELISARIUS CAWL, BEASTS and FLY models can be set up or end a move on any floor level of this terrain feature, but if that level is not the ground floor, such models can only do so if their base does not overhang the floor at that level. All other models can only be set up or end a move on the ground floor of this terrain feature." I've got a few sets of MDF GW tournament-sized terrain footprints. I'd be happy to provide plenty for any tournament, and have the Nexus terrain staged on top of it to allow for models with big bases/bodies to have a better chance of getting wholly within the terrain. And I think most of us are cool if the model is just a little too big to fit completely inside. I have been looking at some custom mouse pad printing companies that can do 12x6" and have been looking for the GW footprints sizes. Mght be worth using something like the objective markers to mark out footprints too. |
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Post by Broadcastle on Sept 10, 2024 5:37:54 GMT -5
Ok good to know I wasn’t mixed up, in regards to a solution if we want to go more low budget for tournaments we could organize an afternoon/evening at Nexus to cut out cardboard bases for the ruins. My work goes through boxes like crazy so I could supply that side of things for $0 instead of paying for pre cut ones
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Post by Broadcastle on Sept 10, 2024 5:38:28 GMT -5
But only infantry and beast models can move through the wall... so I'm not sure how a monster can get IN a ruin then! Unless you're playing with only ruins with the backs totally open, then I guess the monster has to back up to get out lol Best solution would be to model all your big bugs with red flashing reverse lights haha! |
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Post by Typhus on Sept 10, 2024 7:30:16 GMT -5
But only infantry and beast models can move through the wall... so I'm not sure how a monster can get IN a ruin then! Unless you're playing with only ruins with the backs totally open, then I guess the monster has to back up to get out lol The GW terrain also recommends quite a few portions with walls less than 2" in height, which any model can move through, so that helps our bulkier chums get up the board. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 10, 2024 8:19:17 GMT -5
it's a delicate balance thing locally.. The more competitive minded players like the mdf templates and strict GW / WTC layouts. whereas I heard comments "please don't put me on that table" several times over the weekend (with zero "please put me ON those tables").
I guess it depends on how people want to play and I realize everyone is different.
Will I be putting MDF rectangles on all the tables and use GW/WTC layouts in tournaments?
well no, I'm not going to. I don't like the look visually and prefer a more themed / narrative layout on the tables I put together.
Will I stop someone who wants to build/bring a table to an event from using them? Go for it! however you like to build your tables is fine with me.
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Post by raceygaming on Sept 10, 2024 9:34:11 GMT -5
But only infantry and beast models can move through the wall... so I'm not sure how a monster can get IN a ruin then! Unless you're playing with only ruins with the backs totally open, then I guess the monster has to back up to get out lol The GW terrain also recommends quite a few portions with walls less than 2" in height, which any model can move through, so that helps our bulkier chums get up the board. Ya I will say that is one thing that WTC and GW tournaments do a little differently. GW has multiple ruins that have walls less than 2" to allow anything to move over and some 4" for Knights, and then more than 5". WTC really only has 4"/5"/9" tall pieces but the foot prints are all designed to have great than 4" between 2 solid walls to allow any models model to pass between terrain but not necessarily over it. I also know GW has bottom floor windows, while the WTC has bottom floor blocked for more staging protection of models less than 3" tall. I think both systems have some pros and cons but I am liking the WTC ruling for "wall blocking" aka the old im 1.1" away from the wall so your 1.25" base cant fit or be within 1" of me so I'm unchargable. They now use dice to mark the front of a base to stop any magic box type effects, and then when space is free you place the models. It does help speed up games and avoid some odd stale mates. |
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Post by Broadcastle on Sept 10, 2024 10:10:18 GMT -5
it's a delicate balance thing locally.. The more competitive minded players like the mdf templates and strict GW / WTC layouts. whereas I heard comments "please don't put me on that table" several times over the weekend (with zero "please put me ON those tables"). I guess it depends on how people want to play and I realize everyone is different. Will I be putting MDF rectangles on all the tables and use GW/WTC layouts in tournaments? well no, I'm not going to. I don't like the look visually and prefer a more themed / narrative layout on the tables I put together. Will I stop someone who wants to build/bring a table to an event from using them? Go for it! however you like to build your tables is fine with me. I hadn’t realized there was a dislike of the footprint layouts, definitely makes it hard for our local scene to find a balance where most play is focused on fun and enjoyment over whatever specifics GW puts out each edition |
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Post by Typhus on Sept 10, 2024 11:15:54 GMT -5
I'm certainly a big proponent of the footprint style, I feel like it lets you stage terrain of basically any look/design while still blocking a good amount of LOS lanes. Plus it's easy to whip the terrain off if you need to move/measure and then put them back in a pinch.
That said - they were just ugly MDF squares this time, so I'm sure the look was pretty unpleasant. They'll be fully based and painted for Club Champs!
And of course at less competitive tournaments (Santa, Great Crusade) they'll stay home entirely.
Speaking of Great Crusade - hit me up if you want to design a mission around that sweet gothic bunker Andrew won.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 10, 2024 12:25:47 GMT -5
yep... you're a competitive player, those are the ones who like it by and large  And a mission around that bunker would be awesome! |
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