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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 13, 2012 5:53:08 GMT -5
gotta start thinking Astro... here's my thoughts on Daemons introducing princes into the equation instead of soul grinders...
HQ:
Keeper of secrets: sophoric musk
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot: master of sorcery, bolt
Herald of Tzeentch on chariot: master of sorcery, bolt
Troops:
5 plaguebearers
5 plaguebearers
5 plaguebearers
5 plaguebearers
Elite:
5 fiends
5 fiends
6 bloodcrushers
Heavy:
daemon prince
daemon prince
daemon prince
1500 points
this list emphasizes numbers over upgrades... the only upgrades in the whole list are on the HQ's... princes get expensive fast... and I'm still not sold on them over grinders (plus the grinders are great models!)
My secondary list will keep the grinders, but wanted to start off with this one, as it's a bit different...
nekked princes are still 4 wound MC's with a 5+ invul... and are pretty darn cheap if you forgo the upgrades... other option is dropping one prince to get iron hide and mark of khorne on two of them... but that's losing a whole MC to just give them a marine armor save and an extra attack... not sure if that's worth it....
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 13, 2012 6:42:00 GMT -5
List Two - Hoagies and Grinders.... (sorry, SNL reference) HQ: Herald of Tzeentch - chariot, Master of sorcery, bolt, we are legion Herald of Tzeentch - chariot, Master of sorcery, bolt, we are legion Troops: 5 plaguebearers 5 plaguebearers 5 plaguebearers 5 plaguebearers Elite: 5 fiends 5 fiends 5 bloodcrushers Heavy: Soul grinder with phlegm Soul grinder with phlegm Soul grinder with phlegm 1500 points The alternative version of this list drops Phlegm on the three grinders, giving up the big S8 templates to add one bloodcrusher and some wound allocation through fury of khorne and an icon... at the moment I'm thinking that the three big templates are more useful in providing some options, more so than another crusher... three grinders with no icon though makes for some risky deep strikes! So compared to the first list I'm losing the keeper of secrets, who is pretty badass... but getting three grinders instead of the three nekked princes... grinders are kind of melta-bait, but I do love the model.... decisions, decisions.....  |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 13, 2012 7:27:20 GMT -5
I would go with the first one with no hesitation... Your first list looks pretty solid just a little slow because the princes are naked but if you DS properly you will be find...
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Post by calitom on Apr 13, 2012 8:08:15 GMT -5
I'd try to squeeze in bolt on the Princes, but otherwise the first list looks really solid- and of course you know I love Soulgrinders so that list looks fun too.  |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 13, 2012 10:27:00 GMT -5
Only way to get bolt on the princes and keep effective numbers is actually to drop a prince unfortuantely... by the time you pay for the mark and the bolt for two of them, it equals the price of a prince... I'm not entirely sold on the daemon princes to be honest... but the keeper does so much I'd hate to lose him from list two... 1500 is a difficult number for daemons, mainly due to the high cost of upgrades such as icons and the like... it is a two day tourney though, and there's going to be a fair number of meltas and other anti-tank weapons that are going to be squarely aimed at my grinders (due to lack of other options).... do I really expect them to survive? Not sure about that... but really, how hard is it to get rid of a 4W T5 MC with a 4+  (the most survivable option)... small arms fire can do that fairly reliably, whereas they'd bounce off a grinder... wings are just far too expensive (that option alone is almost the cost of another prince!) at this point level... really wracking my brain as to what is the better option.... the slowness of the first list immediately raises some concerns... as the princes would be chasing down things and the opponent could just simply drive away... maybe bolt is a necessity? |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 13, 2012 11:20:37 GMT -5
I would say you should tried it bolt may be a neccessity but I think I can see it working without it... You have the fiends, two chariots and the keeper that can destroy transport...
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Post by calitom on Apr 13, 2012 13:21:07 GMT -5
Could always drop the crushers, pick up an extra unit of plague bearers and put bolt on all the princes-
2 heralds, MoS, bolt, chariots
keeper of secrets
5 fiends
5 fiends
5 x 5 Plaguebearers
3 x tzeentch bolt demon princes
You wind up with 5 point spare, though not sure if you'd really want to give up the crusher for this, I personally think your CC threat is strong enough without the crushers.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 13, 2012 14:38:22 GMT -5
Not sure I'd ever want to give up the crushers... they're the only thing in the list that can truly take a hit, or keep something locked down... everything else is either too fragile (fiends), too poor in combat (plaguebearers) or relying on a 50% invul to keep it alive...
played nids long enough to know that a single MC can die extremely fast!
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 15, 2012 16:57:39 GMT -5
First two games testing list #2 (as I don't own prince models yet)...
soulgrinders were the MVP's on both games... even the second game where I lost by a KP against those damn fleeting terminators of Shrike! super glad I had soulgrinders when that landraider needing some taking out... not too confident on a prince's chances on that!
S8 AP3 large blasts were what won me the game on the first one... those are seriously rough against marines not in transports... We both agreed turn one, if it would have been daemons instead where the soulgrinders landed, they would have been in big trouble... (there's only so many heavy weapons, and since they ignore 1's and 2's, the AV13 grinder is actually pretty survivable)
Both games I lost grinders, but didn't really feel that they died for nothing...
...more testing however is needed....
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 15, 2012 17:30:06 GMT -5
good Shanon, I'm still not sure if I will bring Daemon or Chaos cuz I look at the scenario and Daemon have strong advantage in most of them!
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 15, 2012 21:17:32 GMT -5
Daemons actually don't tend to place that well at Astro events for whatever reason... but it's my best painted army, I like the models, and I have a display board already done... so it's pretty much a case where I know I'll be able to pick up some soft scores at least, so should do okay overall... got 4th overall last year, so if I get lucky I still may be able to be in the top 10 again this year...
I do need to come up with a unique army list idea though... it's worth 10 points... but I'm not really sure what to do for it at all...
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Post by danydaigle24 on Apr 16, 2012 7:10:50 GMT -5
lol yeah if I bring Chaos just bringing them will be unique...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 16, 2012 8:09:44 GMT -5
Actually Chaos places quite well... as do most space marine varients and dark eldar... also nids do better in these tournaments (due to the ability to have alot of scoring units and the relatively few KP missions)...
last year chaos marines took best general... and I think they took another best general this year as well at one of the other astros...
1500 points really changes the balance of power, along with the strange scenarios... some unlikely armies end up doing quite well (sisters for example) where some of the "power armies" don't do as well because they just don't have the points to bring the really nasty stuff...
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Apr 16, 2012 8:26:07 GMT -5
1500 points really changes the balance of power, along with the strange scenarios... some unlikely armies end up doing quite well (sisters for example) where some of the "power armies" don't do as well because they just don't have the points to bring the really nasty stuff... I totally agree, I think the reason for this is that 4th and early 5th ed books we're written with 1500 points being a balanced game that you can cover all your bases and still have points left over to pour into your elite and heavy slots or into HQ for characters, where as the later 5th ed books (likely written with 6th in mind) we're scaled towards a higher number (2k most likely) meaning that to bring the really mean stuff in the HQ/Elite/Heavy slots you have to give up something somewhere else. This is one of the reasons I think 2k is going to be the new 1500 in 6th. Back to the original topic, I think you could try a variant of your list where you only take 2 grinders and fit in the Keeper. All your other bases seem pretty well covered, so finding if 2 grinders + KOS works just as well as 3 is probably a pretty good idea imo. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Apr 16, 2012 8:54:50 GMT -5
I'd need to drop one grinder plus a unit of plaguebearers to fit in the keeper...
I'll give that a try next!
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(the most survivable option)... small arms fire can do that fairly reliably, whereas they'd bounce off a grinder... wings are just far too expensive (that option alone is almost the cost of another prince!) at this point level... 