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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 25, 2014 18:42:58 GMT -5
May I add in addition to the above which I completely agree with:
1. the changes to artillery - took all the tactics out of fielding warmachines when they took out guess ranges
2. steadfast - basically making cavalry useless
3. the way charges work - you can basically move FAR more than any models' movement because you just measure closest to closest and can basically make your unit do all kinds of gymnastic manouvers and make it completely in.
4. limit of one scroll - so if you don't bring a level four of your own you can't even hope to compete because you'll just get blasted off the board and you can't even bring a couple scrolls to give yourself a chance.
5. random charge distance - hate it in 40k and hate it in WHFB.
6. all the stuff Frank mentioned.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 25, 2014 20:28:36 GMT -5
I'm not going to go too deep in to this as Frank and Shannon have already made most of the points that I would have, but as someone who gave 8th a solid try and just....couldn't do it....I feel like one of the major issues is they seem to have aimed to make the game cinematic instead of tactical.
Big explosions! Big monsters! Big units ramming in to each other! BIG BUCKETS OF DICE!!
I know that having mainly played High Elves and Bretonnians I probably suffered more than most in terms of changing play style, but having small combat units and cavalry become effectively worthless, and turning big monster-riding lords into cannon-fodder (literally) just took a lot of the tactical enjoyment out of the game. The inability to say, lure a unit into a forest to pin it, or effectively march block something just...took the kind of experience I was looking for out of the game. If I'm going to play a dice-pitching style game, I have much more fun with 40k, which is at least fast paced and mobile compared to the "grind in the middle" fest that WFB had turned into, at least at the point when I got out.
Games also seemed to be ending with one or both players just kind of rolling their eyes at the results. Being on either end of a giant magic phase of doom just isn't enjoyable, but let's face it, you're not really able to compete without a level 4 wizard anymore, so it almost feels inevitable that it's going to happen every game. It's no fun to just watch your army be removed without having a chance to do anything, and even if you're the one winning, it's not exactly an enjoyable evening to throw dice and watch your opponent sullenly pick up models.
'Ard Boyz just after 8th dropped pretty much finished it off for me. I know cheese was the 'Ard Boyz thing, but when I tabled my opponent in 3 turns without a single combat being engaged in, there's an issue.
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Post by canadianguy on Jan 26, 2014 9:15:01 GMT -5
I think people have hit it on the head as far as what gw intended, cinematic and dumbed down. i agree with Frank's points plus the fact that steadfast needs a tweek or hvy cav gets a bit of a rank negation bonus. The multiple scroll issue I think is a double edged sword as you then get people just bringing a double scroll caddy which gets to be just as much of a pain. If the nuke spells get reined in like they did with black horror I think we will see a big improvement.
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Post by stonecutter on Jan 26, 2014 11:57:20 GMT -5
I was just thinking of when the lore of heavens ruled and lore of life sucked in 7th ed. One of the best spells in heavens was the dunderbolt since it was a massive d6 x S4 hits with no armour save. It still required LOS and went off on a 9+ (13+ equivalent for 8th since you didn't add your level). Nowadays, that is definitely a spell that would be let go unless it was targeting a lone character!!
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J4far
Immortal
Posts: 443
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Post by J4far on Jan 26, 2014 12:52:55 GMT -5
Yeah magic missiles have definitely taken a backseat to the giant nuke spells. Still with magic, its not only the crazy powerful spells that got introduced, but the random number of power/dispel dice is huge in my opinion. Can't say how many times there was a crucial magic phase that either rolled a dismally low number of PD or roll like a 5+1 or 6+1 on dice. I'm not sure the old system of PD and DD generation was better, but this one is far too fickle for me, COMBINED with the huge spells.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 26, 2014 14:57:46 GMT -5
The thing is with the old system is you could actually build a magic centric list and it would more or less reliably do what you wanted.. a level four wasn't required, but lizardmen and high elves were still scary in the magic phase for sure... it just wasn't a "pick up your unit" kind of scary...
back then Tzeentch daemons were masters of magic and very, very scary... now...lol... not so much...
even with the uber spells, magic is just to darn random... you could roll a 2 dice winds of magic phase and no matter how well you set up tactically and built your list around magic, you're just stuffed for no reason... like your big powerful level four slaan just forgot how to cast spells all of a sudden...
of course when magical tactics consist of step one: cast throne of vines step two: six dice dwellers... that's just ridiculous... even if you win the game by doing this, you and your opponent probably had a pretty bad game of it, and how likely are you to want to have another game like that?
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 28, 2014 7:41:04 GMT -5
I really enjoyed magic in 7th where I could happily use a bunch of mid-level magic missiles as my shooting equivalent for my high elves. You could still toss out a lot of magic and do a fair amount of damage without it being an eye-rolling "pick up your unit" situation. Closest thing to a unit-deleter was Flames of the Phoenix which did a S3 to everyone in the unit on a 12+ I believe (Again that is what, a 16+ equivalent in 8th?). So powerful, and had it's remains in play option, but was certainly not broken for the casting cost.
Other little annoyances are Bound Spells and Magic Resistance basically being useless. Bound spells needing to use dice really defeat the purpose of them, and what good is MR buffing a save when 3/4 of the spells that would be cast on your unit either don't allow one or don't require one as a de-buff. One of my favorite tricks in 7th was "hiding" a bound spell; don't cast it for your first 2 or 3 turns, then nuke a lone wizard or finish off some cav by pulling it out on T4 or later once your opponent has used up his dispel dice and scrolls.
Ugh, going through this thread is really making me want to play Fantasy again, though I know if I play it in its current form it will just make me mad.
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