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Post by LizardTau on Jan 12, 2014 5:57:43 GMT -5
1 markerlight takes away one level off the cover save not any more, tau only can take away completly with the 2 marker light tokens
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 12, 2014 8:35:04 GMT -5
yeah I'm not sure the stealer wave idea would actually work, but it'd be fun to actually try and field stealers again!
It's very frustrating to see the whining online and various forums announcing nids are awful, nerfed terrible codex that got worse with the update. I tried commenting on 3++ to abusepuppy's rant but basically got the "well yeah ______ improved but the rest are bad" (insert flyrant, crone, dakkafexes, venomthropes, exocrine as my examples)
when people have their minds made up there's just no changing them... I'm not sure why "can't beat tooled up taudar" is the measure to whether or not the internet forums think a dex is good... if every OTHER codex struggles against tooled up taudar too well maybe our dex isn't the problem here?
I can definitely see where tau and taudar will be a really hard matchup, but they're a really hard matchup for my other armies too! (they're not exactly a pushover army when built/ran effectively now are they? lol)
I'm hoping that once the interwebs calm down a little bit and move on to something else the online forums will be a little less whiney and negative to read!
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 12, 2014 10:11:37 GMT -5
I know I'm really interested to give it a go against the new Nids with my Eldar and Scars. I've always had a ton of fun playing against the bugs in previous editions, and I find they're one of those armies that can really bowl you over if you're not careful/unlucky. My game against Harry's nids in the Championship last year is still one of the best games I've played.
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Post by fritzthedwarf on Jan 12, 2014 10:27:07 GMT -5
Shannon, there will always be people that hate any change regardless of what it is as well as those that defend a new dex regardless of what happened. Every dex will also have units that are very good for their cost. For example, venomthropes, though Tau can remove the cover saves and take out the venomthropes with not to much difficulty that is an issue with Tau. I still think venomthropes have improved a lot and will be good against most armies because even those with ignore cover shooting still have to kill the venomthropes which uses up shooting that isn't going into something else. So I expect to see these a lot from what I see so far.
That said, there are serious concerns about the dex which won't likely go away so the whining on the internet is valid for a number of things about the dex. Units that weren't good before that didn't get better or got nerfed in some way; increased severity if lack of synapse (and carnifex in broods out of synapse can attack each other if they roll the 1-3, just not a single fex), rules that were cut and pasted from the 5e dex but not fixed (trygon tunnel), etc. So I certainly don't see this as a good product compared to space marines (and that dex has issues to but is a better job overall); not comparing to Tau/Eldar (I don't want OP units/dexes). I'm not happy with it so far - after 4 years of the Cruddex mess and tervigon spam (which I hate and never used tervigons) I don't want to end up in another mono-build (or close to it) situation.
That said, I will try the dex out to see what I think works myself and how the rules will work in actual games for some things. For example earlier I was unsure whether I like the removal of the hormagaunt run of 3d6 pick highest, reroll with roll one die (with reroll) and add 3" but after using it think it is a little better. I will try to make nids work for me but I'm not kidding myself that many models I have that I want to use that weren't good choices in 5e did not get better/their problems fixed and some look worse now.
It feels that the new models might be needed (exocrine/crone) but not sure yet as I intend to try use what I have and many of the same standard builds from previous may unfortunately remain as best options (flyrant with devourers and the dakkafex), but we will see. The dex does have some good/interesting stuff but also a lot of missed opportunities to fix things and lacks creativity/imagination. So I understand the anger by many when you think of the 4 years having the Cruddex and the cost of dexes/models - I think they have a right to be upset. I'm sure someone will come up with a strong build for the dex that is competitive but that alone does not make a dex good. A good dex needs more.
LizardTau - I thought I said in the earlier post that 2 markerlight hits can be used to take away all your cover save (based on my game with tau yesterday), and one markerlight could be used to knock the cover save by 1. Are you saying that one markerlight hit cannot be used to take away any cover at all? Or what are you saying?
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Post by LizardTau on Jan 12, 2014 11:15:43 GMT -5
LizardTau - I thought I said in the earlier post that 2 markerlight hits can be used to take away all your cover save (based on my game with tau yesterday), and one markerlight could be used to knock the cover save by 1. Are you saying that one markerlight hit cannot be used to take away any cover at all? Or what are you saying? you did say that, and yes 1 marker light hit can not effect cover saves at all, there is 2 for ignore cover or nothing. there is one exception the seeker missile, if you use one to fire a seeker missile it is now bs and ignores cover.
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Post by fritzthedwarf on Jan 12, 2014 11:19:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the info! So that is the same even with the Farsight enclave supplement and forgeworld stuff?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 12, 2014 11:25:53 GMT -5
Oh I'm not saying I don't have some complaints...I have many... I think there's a ton of pros and cons to this book and some things were just stupid.
There are units that are complete and utter garbage... sadly in every GW book that they ever release, they include these choices... even tau have vespid... there's just choices that are bad... I don't know why they do these things but they do it to everybody... the reason you only see a minor variation of the same eldar list is because those are the best choices... the others are... well some are just garbage let's be honest... ask dark eldar about mandrakes... but be prepared to listen to a LONG rant! lol...
I think that people when a dex drops initially focus on the bad alot... even tau and daemons had people raging when the books dropped and initial rumours were leaked... hell I was guilty of doing it with daemons, thinking they were so random that it was nearly unplayable for competitive play... I was totally 100% wrong and was focusing on the negative changes without seeing all the positives... mainly because some of the units I really liked got changed in ways I didn't like and the army playstyle changed pretty much completely (Daemons went from an elite deep striking army to a horde army with flying psychic support... like a totally different army!)
I remember my first game with the new nids released in 5th edition (the infamous Cruddace V1... the current book is still a Cruddace dex don't kid yourself - all that copy paste stuff is still his work!) I played against Matt and got absolutely frigging tabled... vs. the old eldar... I then played Randy's and Tom's dark eldar a couple times right afterwards... also tabled every time... we used to joke about how quickly my nids could get tabled and I think our record was turn two... as time wore on I got better with the army after lots and lots of games... 6th edition rules hit and gave an incredible boost to the army... but the problem was we got a few crutch things that we (I'm using the global we here, not just you and I Mark! lol) started to rely on...
1. tervigons... I know you didn't use them Mark and it was probably to your benefit that you didn't because players started relying on these things to solve all the issues with scoring that every other army has to deal with. Suddenly free gaunt units were taking on wraithknights (I've done it, and won)... that shouldn't happen. ever... in the history of ever... it was pretty darn easy to get within 18" of a wraithknight, spawn 6" forward, move 6" (while the tervigon moves to ensure synapse+poison) and charge 6"... one dead wraithknight... or at least tarpitted for the game and slowly ground down... by a free unit... not that I'm sympathizing at the death of a wraithknight or anything, but something seems somewhat unfair about that? Plus it pretty much automatically gives out FNP if you were willing to pay 15 points. blood angles pay 75 points for FNP for a squad (and it's on a 1 wound model that can be sniped out). We could give FNP to anyone in range for 15 points... on a T6 6 wound MC that was scoring and made free scoring units. I'm totally okay with this getting hit hard by the nerf bat... it just seems more balanced now (and you can't afford to spam them anymore!)
2. biomancy. I'm guilty of this myself. Cast iron arm on a flyrant. Give it FNP from a tervigon. Launch forward. profit. This probably needed to change. I'm okay with them now... they're good but not "holy crap it's a flying S9 T9 MC that is going to be impossible to hurt and can either shoot or CC me at it's leisure!" I'm okay with them not being flying psychic wraithlords on speed. T9 tervigons was also part of the problem of the unfun spawn list.
3. synapse not mattering. One of the things Cruddace did was make getting out of synapse completely irrelevant. Oh my gaunts just hide in the woods on the objective? ummm okay, well I'm moving my synapse away so I can go to ground. Oh my hormagants are out of synapse... whoops! guess they now are charging you with rage! synapse used to matter. And now it matters again. You have to actually plan for the synapse in your army. I used to worry when synapse started to drop in my army. Then the last book happened and who cares? Well looks like we gotta worry about ensuring the hive mind is actually part of list design and army tactics... I kinda like this change, even if it is going to be used against me.
Here's some of the things we used to complain about:
- we can't get assault grenades - we have no anti-air - we have no AP2 range shooting option - we had options without models in the codex
They fixed these issues with the army.
some other things:
- warrior survivability - ravenor survivability - genestealer survivability - trygon tunnel rule - some models (pyrovore, rippers etc.) are useless
didn't really get fixed... we think... do venomthropes provide survivability? well yes if you're not facing tau, they do actually... and if you're backfield enough to protect synapse nodes, the marker lights can't hit you so you're okay (also LOS blocking works to keep them functional). The red terror is a fast moving prime (at old prime prices) that can protect raveners from ID due to T5... if the old prime price was good... then for essentially a prime with the beast rule and more attacks that's still good right? but everyone says the terror is overpriced and useless... but not if his role is protect your raveners from ID...
I'll never use pyrovores or ripper swarms. I'm also not likely going to use a harpy, even with the new model, because I feel that the crone adds something (anti-air) to my army that I don't have well in hand, while the harpy adds anti-infantry which I have alot of.
hell I might even try a lictor or two... I was pleasantly surprised with how well deathleaper did in my one game.
I also think I figured out what warriors are supposed to do... I think they're supposed to be synapse nodes... like swarm leaders... I'm thinking of larger troop units (again I got spoiled with 10 gaunt units unlocking tervigons... in the fluff when is there EVER only 10 gaunts..lol)... 3 warriors with cover (and perhaps nearby venoms for shrouded) are a pain in the ass to remove, will support and coordinate your swarm, and are actually pretty cheap...
I think the lash/whip bonesword CC warriors are really cool and I WANT to have a viable way of using them... I bought those damn finecast kits for them!!!! but this rant is long enough...lol
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 12, 2014 11:27:26 GMT -5
Yeah, AB's review was much more of a rant than an actual review.
Through he did suggest a couple cool tricks like genestealers using the broodlord. Which I assume would only be better when you factor in venomthropes. And I'm afraid to see what happens when a couple Mawlocs are guided in by a Lictor
It's very obvious the dex is getting far more hate than it deserves, and I think many of the changes were actually for the better. I have a feeling in a few weeks we will start to see the real power of the book.
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Post by fritzthedwarf on Jan 12, 2014 11:34:53 GMT -5
And even though stealers didn't change and have lost a lot (through changes to charging/outflank, etc) I will try them as well, likely with a Broodlord, maybe with the venomthrope but my venomthropes have many units to protect.
I feel that my troop slots will usually be filled now with one unit or another, and usually with a warrior group or two. I will likely stick with at least 2-3 broods of hormagaunts in troops and one group of devourergaunts with spinegaunt ablative wounds attached.
In the elite section, apart from venomthropes which I feel they need currenlty to use, the zoanthropes are useful for being synapse with and invul save. After playing the Farsight Tau with 2 ripetides, skyray, 60 kroot snipers, etc, it is nice to have something that does not need cover and wont lose an armour save. I have experience the failed psychic test (not yesterday) so it does suck if it happens to not be able to fire any of them - at least it has Ld10.
I do want to try to see if lictors can be used - maybe with mawlocs but you have to be close to the target. I don't have any mawlocs (all my three were made into trygons) so I will have to proxy.
I will probably drop the tyranid prime for deathleaper.
I might have to try using my raveners as shrikes in a list to see how that does.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 12, 2014 11:38:48 GMT -5
Per page 68 of the Tau codex there is no way for them to alter a cover save with markerlights. They can simply make all shots resolved against a unit gain the Ignores Cover rule for 2 markerlight hits.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 12, 2014 11:40:17 GMT -5
- warrior survivability - ravenor survivability - genestealer survivability - trygon tunnel rule - some models (pyrovore, rippers etc.) are useless You know, I actually think there's only 1 real issue in that list. And you hit the nail on the head that it's a universal thing. Ask my Howling Banshees/Striking Scorpions/Harlequins/Fire Prisms/Falcons how retirement is. With the current mid-strength spam meta, I actually think Warriors/Raveners are a lot more suvivable than they were in 5th with melta gun spam everywhere. Besides, if you provide the right target saturation, those synpase providing Warriors will definitely be lower on the hit-list than say a Mawloc and some Red-Terror led Raveners right in my face. (Oh look, I shot your synapse away! ha!...wait... your charging me anyways??? YOU GET RAGE??? s***!) Playing AGAINST Nids is also going to change very dramatically, as what I keep seeing is a case of damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-dont, where your army specialties are strengths are spread across so many units that work together, it becomes very difficult to address all of those threats.
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Post by fritzthedwarf on Jan 12, 2014 11:54:22 GMT -5
No doubt target saturation is the thing to make warriors and raveners hopefully worth while. The red terror is something I have been considering, as you mentioned acts as a tyranid prime. If I do use and like one I will make my own out of a ravener - I dislike the old model.
And mawlocs will likely get tried by me as well at some point.
And don;t get me wrong, I am glad to see the end to tervigon spam. Just think they went to far for example extending the termagant casualty radius to 12" (synapse range the gants need to stay in on top of all the other nerfs).
Some changes are for the better - I am fine with having additional melee weapons granting a +1 attack so that a carnifex with 2 sets of scything talons has more attacks than a fex with 2 sets of devourers. That just makes sense. Venomthropes as mentioned are better now.
A big thing is with an actual horde on the board getting everything to move quickly will be an issue - have to practice with it more.
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Post by fritzthedwarf on Jan 12, 2014 11:57:49 GMT -5
And with the Tau markerlights removing cover I probably misunderstood the 1 markerlight thing. My opponent always used 2 markerlights for ignore cover.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 12, 2014 12:19:47 GMT -5
In the old Tau book you'd spend 1 markerlight to make a cover save 1 worse per light spent.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 12, 2014 12:54:58 GMT -5
lol.. Mark, do you think most people can tell the difference visually between a trygon and a mawloc?
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