Post by nsc on Jul 30, 2015 14:00:39 GMT -5
Now in the grand scheme of things comparing apples and oranges isn't useful.
However in terms of using warscrolls in combat it's more like comparing two brands of knives, so very useful!
Blood Warriors from the Khorne Bloodbound (nice name)
5" move, 2 wounds, 6 bravery, 4+ save
2 attacks, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, no rend.
Gorefist (on an armour save, if enemy unit is within 1" roll a d6, on a 6 inflict a mortal wound)
No Respite (when a model dies in the combat phase, it can pile in and attack)
Comparing it to 'similar' heavy/shock infantry
Bestigors from the Beastmen Warscroll Compendium
6" move, 1 wound, 6 bravery, 4+ save
2 attacks, +4 to hit, +3 to wound, -1 rend.
Banners - move an extra inch during run movement and/or during pile ins
Brayhorn - Can run and charge in the same turn
Despoilers - +1 to hit if fighting TOTEM keyword, or fighting any standard bearers, banner bearers, icon bearers or flag wavers.
Now in a wound battle the bestigors straight up win with twice as many attacks per wound and rend-1, as far as buffing goes a bloodsecrator has a better bubble range, but the battalion warscroll which bestigors are in are arguably stronger, more flexible, and easier to utilize (bloodsecrator plants banner during hero phase and skips movement phase, thus he needs to be in combat to plant and fight, otherwise he skips his turn).
The only spot that the blood warriors excel in is when they're dying (gorefist and no respite trigger on the unit dying/getting hit) and the model count, so if you want to tilt yourself towards a sudden death you'd want to field blood warriors.
Furthermore if you're running a Khorne Bloodbound army you won't ever consider bestigors over blood warriors, similarly with a bray-herd. If you're running an "unbound" list, then the bestigors are probably better for what they offer.
Moving a minimum of 8" a turn with full command (always run, there's no downside) and a maximum of 13" (faster than cavalry) the bestigors are extremely maneuverable for dealing with totems, you can just run these guys into almost anything, they are better at killing everything but 7+ save units (or - saves if you prefer) where their rend value isn't relevant, but they still get more attacks. The increased movement and pile in means the bestigors are more likely to surround opposing units and bring more attacks to bear, so the lower model count doesn't help to get the warriors to bring more of their models to bear.
The only consideration I would further add is that the units in the new box set shy away from banners (except reavers) so the despoiler ability isn't as useful at first glance, but even without the despoiler buff the units are on an equal die rolls.
How valuable is rend? Short answer: VERY.
Liberators are the toughest infantry in the game, 4+ save and re-rolling 1s with their shield puts a 33% chance on a wound being unsaved on the first pass, 16% are re-rolled allowing 8% further to fail, with a 38% of a wound being unsaved in total.
Putting one point of rend into these guys dramatically increases the failure rate, 50% of wounds are unsaved no re-roll, and of the 16% that are re-rolled 9.6% total will get through, meaning with rend-1 the liberators have a 69.6% chance to take a wound.
Undead skeletons have rotting shields (crypt shields, skeleton warriors) which offer a 5+ save, if and only if the weapon doesn't have a rend value (having a rend value at all bypasses the save bonus, and the rend reduces their 6+ save to a 7+ save aka a '-' save). 10 blood warrior attacks have about 1.6 wounds go through that need to be saved and against crypt shields this yields 2.18 wounds on average, so pretty much two wounds. 10 bestigor attacks yield 4.36 wounds, no saves allowed assuming a banner in the enemy unit and 3.3 wounds, no saves, assuming no banner.
These calculations assume equal model counts, for an equal wound count the bestigors would have twice as many attacks and quickly outclass the blood warriors.
Does the gorefist and no respite make up for this difference in wound value? No, but model on model the two units become closer to comparable imo so if a tournament was counting models for its comp I would probably consider the multiwound blood warriors.
Of course at the end of the day I like goats better than zerkers so to each his own. Get some starter kits and bloodsecrate
However in terms of using warscrolls in combat it's more like comparing two brands of knives, so very useful!
Blood Warriors from the Khorne Bloodbound (nice name)
5" move, 2 wounds, 6 bravery, 4+ save
2 attacks, 3+ to hit, 4+ to wound, no rend.
Gorefist (on an armour save, if enemy unit is within 1" roll a d6, on a 6 inflict a mortal wound)
No Respite (when a model dies in the combat phase, it can pile in and attack)
Comparing it to 'similar' heavy/shock infantry
Bestigors from the Beastmen Warscroll Compendium
6" move, 1 wound, 6 bravery, 4+ save
2 attacks, +4 to hit, +3 to wound, -1 rend.
Banners - move an extra inch during run movement and/or during pile ins
Brayhorn - Can run and charge in the same turn
Despoilers - +1 to hit if fighting TOTEM keyword, or fighting any standard bearers, banner bearers, icon bearers or flag wavers.
Now in a wound battle the bestigors straight up win with twice as many attacks per wound and rend-1, as far as buffing goes a bloodsecrator has a better bubble range, but the battalion warscroll which bestigors are in are arguably stronger, more flexible, and easier to utilize (bloodsecrator plants banner during hero phase and skips movement phase, thus he needs to be in combat to plant and fight, otherwise he skips his turn).
The only spot that the blood warriors excel in is when they're dying (gorefist and no respite trigger on the unit dying/getting hit) and the model count, so if you want to tilt yourself towards a sudden death you'd want to field blood warriors.
Furthermore if you're running a Khorne Bloodbound army you won't ever consider bestigors over blood warriors, similarly with a bray-herd. If you're running an "unbound" list, then the bestigors are probably better for what they offer.
Moving a minimum of 8" a turn with full command (always run, there's no downside) and a maximum of 13" (faster than cavalry) the bestigors are extremely maneuverable for dealing with totems, you can just run these guys into almost anything, they are better at killing everything but 7+ save units (or - saves if you prefer) where their rend value isn't relevant, but they still get more attacks. The increased movement and pile in means the bestigors are more likely to surround opposing units and bring more attacks to bear, so the lower model count doesn't help to get the warriors to bring more of their models to bear.
The only consideration I would further add is that the units in the new box set shy away from banners (except reavers) so the despoiler ability isn't as useful at first glance, but even without the despoiler buff the units are on an equal die rolls.
How valuable is rend? Short answer: VERY.
Liberators are the toughest infantry in the game, 4+ save and re-rolling 1s with their shield puts a 33% chance on a wound being unsaved on the first pass, 16% are re-rolled allowing 8% further to fail, with a 38% of a wound being unsaved in total.
Putting one point of rend into these guys dramatically increases the failure rate, 50% of wounds are unsaved no re-roll, and of the 16% that are re-rolled 9.6% total will get through, meaning with rend-1 the liberators have a 69.6% chance to take a wound.
Undead skeletons have rotting shields (crypt shields, skeleton warriors) which offer a 5+ save, if and only if the weapon doesn't have a rend value (having a rend value at all bypasses the save bonus, and the rend reduces their 6+ save to a 7+ save aka a '-' save). 10 blood warrior attacks have about 1.6 wounds go through that need to be saved and against crypt shields this yields 2.18 wounds on average, so pretty much two wounds. 10 bestigor attacks yield 4.36 wounds, no saves allowed assuming a banner in the enemy unit and 3.3 wounds, no saves, assuming no banner.
These calculations assume equal model counts, for an equal wound count the bestigors would have twice as many attacks and quickly outclass the blood warriors.
Does the gorefist and no respite make up for this difference in wound value? No, but model on model the two units become closer to comparable imo so if a tournament was counting models for its comp I would probably consider the multiwound blood warriors.
Of course at the end of the day I like goats better than zerkers so to each his own. Get some starter kits and bloodsecrate
