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Post by thesanityassassin on May 11, 2016 9:59:50 GMT -5
The problem I think with dropping the Dogfight phase (which I'm not saying we should necessarily use) is that it's really hurting the utility of fighters - you're shooting poorly at the ground in exchange for the ability to be able to pick off enemy flyers in the air. It'd be frustrating to have my Hell Blade, which I honestly use as a Ground Attack craft most times despite it clearly being a fighter, operating at a lower quality against my usual targets without getting the benefits that otherwise come from being a fighter.
I really don't know where to go with these rules if I'm honest. Adding another phase seems....problematic...but at the same time, adopting HALF of the rules also doesn't feel like the best measure.
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Post by voodoo on May 11, 2016 10:36:17 GMT -5
The hellblade can still get the bonus vs. other flyers without being in the dogfight phase; they’ll just have less of a chance to shine as the main purpose of the dogfight phase is to have fighters try to keep bombers and attack craft from hitting the table where they’ll harm your army.
They’re still useful; they just don’t get their own phase to have an attempt to negate an opposing flyer outright.
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Post by nekekami on May 11, 2016 12:42:08 GMT -5
The problem I think with dropping the Dogfight phase (which I'm not saying we should necessarily use) is that it's really hurting the utility of fighters - you're shooting poorly at the ground in exchange for the ability to be able to pick off enemy flyers in the air. It'd be frustrating to have my Hell Blade, which I honestly use as a Ground Attack craft most times despite it clearly being a fighter, operating at a lower quality against my usual targets without getting the benefits that otherwise come from being a fighter. I really don't know where to go with these rules if I'm honest. Adding another phase seems....problematic...but at the same time, adopting HALF of the rules also doesn't feel like the best measure. But like I said, from what I remember is that the Dogfight phase is actually optional, and therefore at the discretion of the players/TO/etc, where the new rules, and datasheets not, and are literally replacing the codex entries. It'll take some time to digest, but that's what happens when a game is played with an evolving ruleset. As for the Forgeworld stuff the way I see it, is that you're not really entitled to use whatever you want, until the TO says, or the players agree, on what is legal in a list. This blankets everything, from suppliments, codexes, and off onto 2nd party stuff, like Forgeworld. If you use these things, and something changes, and now you have to wait for an update well that's your problem specifically. Considering that a lot of it really come from murky depths in the first place, most of the Forgeworld stuff we use comes from Apocalypse books, and there was some laughter about the FAQ concerning Apoc formations in 40k, which I think is kinda funny in the first place. "LOL this guy wanted to use a Masters of the Chapter in his battle company, what a joke!" (proceeds to set up Typhons/Fire Raptors/Rapier Batteries/Sicarans/etc). Or something. |
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Post by LizardTau on May 11, 2016 14:16:54 GMT -5
Ok. People who actually have the book. What does the dog fight phase actually consist of?
Do you literally just play rock paper scissors lizard spock and then shoot at each other in that order.
If so , that will take only few moments.
Sent from my SGH-I337M using proboards
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Post by voodoo on May 11, 2016 15:17:20 GMT -5
Considering that a lot of it really come from murky depths in the first place, most of the Forgeworld stuff we use comes from Apocalypse books, and there was some laughter about the FAQ concerning Apoc formations in 40k, which I think is kinda funny in the first place. "LOL this guy wanted to use a Masters of the Chapter in his battle company, what a joke!" (proceeds to set up Typhons/Fire Raptors/Rapier Batteries/Sicarans/etc). Or something. Of which not a single one of those units was ever in IA: Apoc. I digress, I likely won’t get enough games in with either of my chaos armies before FW FAQ’s their flyers so that part is fairly moot. I just wish Forgeworld someday stops being labelled as “2nd party”; they’re the same damn parent company. |
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Post by mraven on May 11, 2016 17:04:27 GMT -5
Ok. People who actually have the book. What does the dog fight phase actually consist of? Do you literally just play rock paper scissors lizard spock and then shoot at each other in that order. If so , that will take only few moments. Sent from my SGH-I337M using proboards Here's the rundown: dogfight phase happens once per game turn, and only if both players have flyers in reserve. step 1. dogfight phase only happens if both players want it to. If neither of you want it to, nothing happens. If one does and one doesn't, roll d6 and winner decides. step 2. Opponents Roll d6 and add 1 if they have more fighters in reserve than bombers, subtract 1 if more bomers than fighter. Winner is attacker, loser is defender. step 3. Attacker picks one of his flyers and one enemy flyer. These are the aircraft dogfighting. Set up both aircraft 36" apart facing each other. step 4. Rock Paper Scissors. Winner can move 12" towards or away from loser, or can disengage and end the dogfight. If winners Pursuit value is 2 more than the losers, can move 24" instead. step 5. Rock Paper Scissors again. Winner can pivot losers aircraft up to 90 degrees left or right, or can choose to Jink. If winners Agility is at least 2 points higher than losers, can pivot him 180 degrees. step 5. Rock Paper Scissors again. Winner shoots first. If both aircraft are facing each other head on, both can only fire snap shots. If one flyer is facing the other flyers rear armor, he fires at full BS and the other flyer can only Fire snap shots. At all other angles fighters are full BS and attack aircraft and bombers are snap. Otherwise normal shooting rules apply. You can only junk if you won the previous manoeuvre RPS, and there is a seperate Crash and Burn table if you are destroyed in a dogfight. The RPS for each mini game have a corresponding table that you reference for the result, sometimes you can get a bonus to pursuit or agility based on tactics outcomes. seems like a lot of steps but really it comes down to a few opposed rolls and two flyers shooting. Maybe 5 min, once per game turn if you play it all the way through? |
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Post by mraven on May 11, 2016 17:12:22 GMT -5
I would say that if you are unsure about Dogfight in tournaments, just house rule it that if any player does not want to dogfight, the dogfight phase does not take place.
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Post by thesanityassassin on May 11, 2016 17:18:24 GMT -5
At that point you might as well just exclude it honestly. If one player has a Fighter and the other player has literally any other kind of aircraft, I doubt they'll want it to take place!
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Post by mraven on May 11, 2016 17:53:00 GMT -5
At that point you might as well just exclude it honestly. If one player has a Fighter and the other player has literally any other kind of aircraft, I doubt they'll want it to take place! Yeah, I guess that's true. |
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Post by vadah on May 11, 2016 19:16:22 GMT -5
can we at least agree that everything in the book isn't optional (other than the dog fight phase)?
Cause theres like 2-3 pages of rules updates for flyers that include the things like flyer roles, break turns, formations, etc. The pages start by saying "this first section of the burning skies rules presents the expanded rules for flyers, which replace those from warhammer 40,000: the rules"
then after the formations and stuff it gets into the dog fight phase in its own section where it specifically states that it's optional and in a situation where players disagree whether to use it or not, you roll off with the winner deciding if it's happening or not.
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Post by vadah on May 11, 2016 19:16:58 GMT -5
I'm also willing to take pictures of said rules and such for people if requested.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 11, 2016 21:59:01 GMT -5
geez, they seriously introduced several rounds of rock paper scissors as a game mechanic?
like seriously? you aren't messing with me?
lol... wow....
the thing is several of the rules, as Vadah mentioned are specifically said to replace the rules for flyers and are an official update.
remember when we said stronghold assault and superheavy weren't ever going to be in the game?...lol... yeah me too
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Post by Khalai on May 11, 2016 22:29:43 GMT -5
remember when we said stronghold assault and superheavy weren't ever going to be in the game?...lol... yeah me too I remember when they were supplements that weren't part of the base game until next edition. I'm pretty sure we didn't allow them until then. And even those didn't change core game mechanics. I'm not a big fan of this kind of core rules changing that is in a supplement. The only thing to my recollection that has changed rules from the BRB are errata and FAQs to this point. Everything else that has changed core mechanics/rules only has applied to the units which were entirely detailed in the book they were contained in. I'm... hesitant at best to embrace these as the core rules because of these reason (Amongst others, but that's for another time). If GW puts out an errata to the BRB I will 100% drop any reservations, but I don't expect that ever to happen. |
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Post by mraven on May 12, 2016 1:50:47 GMT -5
geez, they seriously introduced several rounds of rock paper scissors as a game mechanic? like seriously? you aren't messing with me? lol... Well it's not literally Rock Paper Scissors, but functionally it is very similar. Each player picks a tactic and compares them, some tactics result in the attacker winning, some with the defender winning, some with ad added effect. You can achieve the same effect by having each player roll d3 and comparing the result on the table. |
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Post by LizardTau on May 12, 2016 4:44:47 GMT -5
Wait. On steps 4 and 5. You talk about moving and turning.
Does that mean you need to set the flyers up on anouther table.
If so then nope no tournament will allow this. Most are tight for space as it is.
Edit: to be clear I'm only desscussing the dogfight phase because the data slate do say they adjust the codex entries so nothing we can do about that unless we rule people can use either ones lol
Sent from my SGH-I337M using proboards
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