Crisis Suits v.s. Inceptors

[connor]

I want to take a moment to compare a couple of units to really display the power disparity between marines and xenos units. I’m going to be taking XV8 crisis suits, a mainline T’au unit and one of my favorite units in the game. I started playing T'au around the start of 6 th, when the FSE supplement was released. In that supplement you could make crisis suits troops, so naturally I fielded nothing but XV8s and commanders. I still own a decent number of suits, and try to run a unit in every T’au list I play no matter how bad they are, but 9th has done some real damage to them, and this comparison is laughable.
We’ll compare the crisis suit to a similar marine unit, the inceptors. Their state lines are close, they are both fast moving assault weapon wielding units that can have similar loadouts. Inceptors are considered a fairly suboptimal unit in space marines but they are the closest comparison to XV8s. I’m going to compare the two versions of inceptor (assault bolter and plasma) to two loadouts of crisis suits that have close profiles (twin burst + ATS and twin CiB + ATS respectively).

Let’s begin with base stats and cost:

30 points, XV8 crisis battlesuit

M WS BS S T W A Ld Sv

8" 5+ 4+ 5 5 3 2 7 3+


The basic battlesuit comes with no weapons inbuilt into the cost, so for 30 points you get this unarmed statline

40 points, Inceptor

M   WS BS S T W A Ld Sv

10" 3+ 3+ 4 5 3  2 7  3+

The base inceptor comes with a pair of assault bolters, so for the base cost you come with 6 S5, Ap -1, D1 shots, but we’re ignoring those for now

This look at the two without upgrades is pretty comparable. Crisis suits have a worse set of stats overall, they are slower and can’t hit as well as their marine equivalent which is par for the course with T’au units. All that advanced targeting equipment is good for nothing as you get in a suit and hit like a guardsman who’s been through basic training, but in comparison they get a 25% discount which is arguably worth it on it’s own, but now let’s add some guns

The closest loadout to the assault bolters is two bust cannons with ATS, a cheap chaff clearing weapon loadout that can deal decent damage to anything in large amounts. It nets you 8 S5 AP -1 D1 shots, so 2 shots more than the marine equivalent to a pretty good leg up right? For that loadout you pay an additional 21 points, bringing our suit to 51 points total. Marines pay 0 points for 6 S5 AP -1 D1 shots, bringing their total cost to 40, again.

So now we're paying a premium for crisis suits, at around a 20% markup for 2 extra shots with the same profile. This isn’t as great as it sounds when you consider that marines hit on 3+ while suits base are hitting on 4+ (there are ways to improve both these but stick with this for now or we’ll be here 20 pages)

So the inceptor out the box hits 4 times, and so does the crisis suit in this set up. So T’au are paying an 11 point premium to be slower and hit worse but potentially kill more. This isn't great but it’s not horrible, there are ways to improve the hit odds of suits to almost auto hit with one unit (2+ re-rolling 1s) and re-roll all wounds (with 1 unit) but you’re likely not going to do this with the basic loadout, and let’s not forget that marines have their own set of buffs too. So let’s move on to one of the better loadouts of XV8 and compare to an inceptor.

CiB suit, or the cyclic ion blaster suit, is a popular all rounder weapon choice for the crisis suits. This weapon loadout consists of two CiBs and an ATS, getting 6, S7, AP -2, 1D shots that can overcharge to be assault 6, S8, Ap-2, Dd3 shots. Compare this to the plasma exterminator on the inceptor, and you get 2D3, S7, Ap -3, D1 shots or 2D3, S8, AP -3, D2 shots. The notable exception is that on a roll of 1 for the CiB you take a mortal wound whereas the plasma gun outright kills the model. Neither of these units are without good re-roll auras so it is rare but the CiB has the advantage there.

In fact I’d say this CiB is the better weapon overall. Having 6 shots always is far more consistent and reliable, and while d3 damage is more variable than flat 2 it averages out to the same net damage against most things. Both these units put out decent firepower though against almost any target, and are great at hunting vehicles and elite infantry. The CiB does lack AP in comparison but AP -2 is often enough to bring your target to invuln saves so it’s functional at its job.

Ok, so the crisis suit is better then? What about the cost? For an inceptor with twin plasma it is 50 points, a 5 point upgrade over the assault bolters (you have two). A crisis suit pays 41 points for twin CiB ATS! So our suit is 71 points now. Once again we’re paying a premium for what I did call the better weapons of 21 points now. So on average an inceptor puts out 4 shots and hits with 2.6667 of them. A crisis suit shoots 6 shots and hits 3 on average. Our base unit costs 21 points more for a ⅓ extra hit with similar stated weapons.

Now you can argue drones, transhuman, weapons of the dark age, chapter masters, C&C node, marker lights, doctrines, vetran cadre (spend CP to have marine stats), etc... But there is a lot and it all costs extra resources for either side to put in, but T’au are already spending more points to bring the unit itself. This means one side is going to have more points overall to spend on objective sitters, buffing units, backline firepower or whatever else they want. A unit of 6 inceptors with plasma vs a unit of 6 suits with CiB saves the marine player 126 points, that’s another unit of 3 bolter inceptors on the board, or aggressors, or a troop unit.

I and everyone else complains about space marines a lot right now, but it is warranted. Marines get for free what other factions have to pay for, and then get free rules on top of that which no faction can even pay to get. It’s not even a contest, playing a marine army is almost playing PVE when you go against xenos. It’s been a year since the codex dropped, and in about a month they’re getting a new one, and if it isn’t a significant rebalance of that faction I think I’m done playing against power armor. The last army I refused to play on sight was Eldar back in 7th, but this feels like that again.

[dave]

This is about the conclusion when I compare any marine equivalent to one of my units. As good, better, or at least more cost effective at the thing my army excels at, and can also participate in the phases where I can't. Thank you for the actual math to back up my salt though, haha.

I may be a bit negative, but I haven't had any desire to play against marines since the supplements came out, and I don't see that changing after they get their second codex in just over a year.

I mean, we can play if you want, but I can't see either of us actually enjoying the game. On the plus side, the volume and variety of units and playstyles within codex space marine will make it a little less boring for them when we enter the Horus Heresy 40k.

On another plus side, since the marines seem to be dominating the codex release cycle for this year too, and the necron update looks cool but not OP, anyone not bringing marines that day should have a pretty decent playing field for some time as well.

9th is fun, I am really enjoying what they have done with the game. Army balance is awful, but easy enough to avoid the worst offenders. Marines make it difficult to show up prepared for a casual game, but since so many people play them, it shouldn't be too hard to find yourself an opponent. Marines vs marines to the right, if you brought something else, over here to the left.

[raceygaming]

So Connor I've been looking over this again and can see 2 options for Crisis Going forward

1. Points stay the same, in which case I'd expect to see Crisis get: +1-2 Wounds ( 4-5 total), +1WS to 4+, +1 BS to 3+, +2" M to 10".

2. Point decrease I think we aren't going to the base model move much but weapons could come down pretty big. CiB -8pts to 10pts, ATS same at 5 pts, Burst Cannons -4 pts to 4pts. would leave the comparisons at CiB 55pts to 50 and Burst at 43pts to 40.

I'd like tau to go more towards option 1 as the elite feel is better than the spammy feel.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I'd anticipate crisis to go to 10" for sure at least (matches most other "jump" style heavy infantry like destroyers)

They're well known for being pretty overcosted so I'd imagine the points will drop at least somewhat, in addition to other improvements... the necron codex gives me some pretty solid confidence in that they were able to breathe new life into units that people were pretty much given up on (warriors, pretorians, scarabs, etc. etc. etc.)

[Frosty the Pirate]

See I personally think it will go a completely different direction. (For the record, I don't play Tau, and this is purely spitballing science at the wall, so please don't be offended if this isn't how you want your Tau to be)

If I was the rules-designer, I the #1 item on my wishlist for reworking Tau & Crisis Suits, would be introduce shoot-in-combat just like Vehicles. Since Suits typically replace vehicles for the most part in the codex, why not bridge that gap?

For example, imagine if you took Crisis Suits basically as is today (maybe with a _slight_ reduction on weapons costs), but you added a rule like

Point Defense - This unit may still make shooting attacks in the shooting phase while an enemy unit is within engagement range, as long as the shooting attack only targets a unit within engagement range.

Or Perhaps:

Close Range Fire Control - This unit may select a ranged-weapon to attack with in the Fight Phase as if it was the Shooting Phase. If it does so it, it must only select target(s) within engagement range of this unit.

I think this redesigning Tau with a shoot-in-combat approach in some certain places (In my vision for the Tau Codex, some other units meant to fight in-close like Breachers would also get this rule), it would really increase their ability to hold firm in a location (such as on an Objective, one of their key weaknesses)

I HIGHLY doubt BS3+ for Tau is on the way. EVERY SINGLE TIME a new Tau Codex is on the horizon people always say "Suits better be BS3+ this time" and they NEVER are. It's almost as bad as Eldar players hoping Howling Banshees will be good again.