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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 8, 2021 12:17:43 GMT -5
you did manage to zone out your deployment zone quite well, which stops secondaries like scramblers. Those support batteries were surprisingly deadly for the minimal point investment. They seem like a good buy.
That linked fire strat for 4D3 rerolling to hit and wound S9 D3 damage shots was brutal for 1 CP!
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 8, 2021 14:36:29 GMT -5
Yeah, Linked Fire is probably the strongest stratagem in terms of raw-power in the whole codex. Here's the actual text of the strat just for explaination purposes:
So the cost/situation is really restrictive because you need:
Multiple Fire Prisms on the Battlefield (340 for two, or 510 for three)
All prisms linking must be able to draw LOS to the firing model (who can be any of the prisms)
The Firer has to draw LOS to the target, and the firer's shots don't take place until the end of the phase (So I fast-roll this by shooting all prisms together at this end-step, even through you are technically allowed to shoot all but the firing model in normal sequence)
Each Prism must move under half speed (M 16/12/8 based on bracket) or remain stationary to be allowed to shoot twice, and must use the same profile and target for both shots (Basically Craftworld's version of Guard's Grinding Advance)
As you can see, it's not terribly difficult to do, but it's a big commitment and you probably only get 1-2 turns off unless you are using another 1CP to use Fire And Fade on the Firer model to hide everyone out of LOS. Craftworld's doesn't have very many CP outlets, so this is where I'm dumping the majority of my CP spend with this list, I typically earmark 4 CP for 2 Linked Fires and 2 Fire and Fades, and 2 more CP for Phantasm at the start of the game if I need to redeploy to get aggressive.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 16, 2021 10:28:29 GMT -5
So, some lessons learned from last night's game:
I did a much better job being assertively aggressive with the Guardian bomb, and against elite characters who have low-volume-high-quality attacks the Guardian's are actually a fairly decent tarpit being immune to Morale as long as the Avatar is around.
I have too many of my infantry off-table at T1/Deployment, and I struggle to do Raise-Banners or get an early-start on Scramblers if I need to move-forward.
Fire Prisms have a huge glaring weakness I hadn't realized until it came up. If you tag either one of them in combat, they can't shoot their way out of it because only the Lance profile isn't blast. This means my castling strat for them while effective, has a clutch-weakness I hadn't considered.
My idea of non-infantry based screens using the Support Weapons and Vypers worked really quite well. This was the first time I've played this against such a combat-heavy opponent and my theory that low-model-count-wound-sponges could be a more effective screen than a cheap-throwaway unit like Guardians seemed to hold water. The Vypers and Support Weapons filled up space, and their T5 W5/W6 profiles were much harder to break through than traditional throw-away GEQ (Guardsman-Equiv) screens.
I really need a 3rd psyker, and some bonus to cast. This means finding 65 points for a Warlock Skyrunner so I can have access to the Seer Council Strat and Focus Will power. This could give me as much as +3 to casts for a key turn, and give me significant odds of being able to super-smite-on-command with my Runes Of The Farseer reroll. As part of this, I think I need a second "active defense" power. Protect/Jinx being located on the Wraithseer makes him a bullseye for breaking my anvil, so moving protect/jinx to the Warlock and giving him Conceal/Reveal I think is going to be useful. Being able to hand out -1 to hit to Guardians or Shining Spears should help them soak wounds a bit better.
A minor change I made pre-game of grabbing Stand Firm on the Dire Avengers was useful. Having them be morale-immune was helpful, and this has given me an idea here.
So, here's a possible iterative improvement.
Changes:
WTF Frosty!?!?! You REMOVED the Fire Prisms! Are you insane? - Yes. Quite insane. Removing my "best-performing" unit of the past 2 games. This was necessary to make this work, and is kind of the problem with Fire Prisms. They hit really really really hard, but D3 damage attribute on the Focussed profile kinda feels like all the lead up to the damage roll is just a tease, and my super-duper-laser-cannon has kinda hit like a whiffle-ball a few times.
Be removing the Fire Prisms, and replacing with 7 Dark Reapers + Exarch, I save 60 points of the 65 necessary to add the warlock, and instead gain a choice of the following each turn:
9x S8 always-hit-on-3+ AP-2 D Flat 3 Missiles OR 17x S5 always-hit-on-3+ AP-2 D Flat 2 Missiles
By hijacking the Wave Serpent from the Dire Avengers, and expecting to use Fire and Fade to jump back into the heavily armoured shell of the Wave Serpent, this then frees up the Dire Avengers to buddy up with the Avatar and Guardians as a second-available action-source on Turn 1, and after seeing how the Guardian's fared the past couple games I'm actually thinking that 110 points of Dire Avengers is really not worth protecting with a 170 point Wave Serpent. Since the Avengers will likely be hanging out with the Avatar, I've swapped back to Shredding Fire from Stand Firm since it's redundant now.
As I mentioned above, the Warlock takes over Jinx/Protect from the Wraithseer, who grabs Conceal/Reveal instead, and picks up Focus Will as a way to juice-up the Farseer even further. I also gain a 4th deny/round, have access to the Seer Council stratagem for +1 to cast for both the Warlock and Farseer for 1CP as long as they are near each other. In theory I could get as high as a 75% chance of getting a key power off like Doom even under The Deepest Shadow, or be super-smiting on a 8+ with any-number-of-dice reroll available.
This comes to the last 5 points, which I took away the Star Lance from the Shining Spear Exarch. He'll have to just use a regular Laser Lance. Given he no longer has a special weapon, I'm tempting to swap Swooping Dive for Skilled Rider (as shown in the list above) so I have access to that dirty-elf-BS 2+ invul if I need it. I'll likely stick to Swooping Dive for now.
Finally, the last change is swapping from Hail Of Doom back to Masters of Concealment for now. While I've had really good success with Hail of Doom at lower points levels (500/1000), Shuriken weapons just aren't as potent at Strike Force game size, and improving my saves on my sit-back-and-shoot units who are the real muscle of this list seems like a good way to help win exchanges.
We'll see if this works any better or if I regret my life choices by swapping out the Fire Prisms.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on May 16, 2021 11:07:46 GMT -5
list is less susceptible to anti-tank lists which is a good thing I think as there are some lists that could go first and dunk a fire prism fairly easily, whereas dark reapers are much less vulnerable to these issues and provide consistent damage without degrading
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Post by raceygaming on May 16, 2021 17:12:18 GMT -5
Also remember with the changes to the FAQ dark reapers can fire and fade INTO a transport so if you have a serpent baby sit them they become one of the hardest units to remove.
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Post by raceygaming on May 17, 2021 8:43:58 GMT -5
I do think in the new Eldar codex that out of phase movement could be something that they use to help deal with just how squishy the models are. Maybe a strat to move in moral phase, could be combines with a wave serpent baby sitter to do some cool, banshees charge mop the floor, retreat into a tank to weather the oncoming storm. I also kinda hope for this for Tau but linked to suits or assault phase.
I do hope they can come up with a cool design space for Eldar , since for DE they were just like what if they aren't tough BUT they blend anything they touch so there is no retaliation. I'd like Eldar to go in a different direction.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 19, 2021 6:36:43 GMT -5
While I'll definitely be using the JSJ provided by Fire and Fade until Craftworld's gets a codex. I honestly am not a fan of JSJ. It's kind of game breaking to have extra movement and was a source of a huge amount of opponent frustration in past editions. I personally hope they find Tau and Eldar a new way to cover their fragility weakness.
There are so many ways the lore can be used as reference points here, and I see a lot of them attempted to be experimented with in some of the Psychic Awakening books, a few great examples include Tau's Accelerated Photon Grenades and Reactive Counter Measures. Or Craftworld's Impair Senses. These abilities were overlooked and seen as terrible meta-game wise, but with some slight changes or revamping I think they would easily create the ideological base for how to make these faction less fragile, using "active/reactive defenses"
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on May 19, 2021 16:45:43 GMT -5
Alrighty, shifting gears here. Back to the Space Wolves for a moment as I need to cook up something worthy of being eaten by Nids.
Lord pairs with Thunder Wolves, Bjorn pairs with the Bladeguard, Heavy Ints pair with Whirlwind, Assault Ints go in the Repulsor, Infiltrators and Elimintaors setup as appropriate.
This uses a TON of stuff I've literally never played with before. Absolutely no idea if this is anywhere from decent to terrible. It's punchy space wolves. My plan is growl ferociously and do stoic space marine things like take the center of the table and charge stuff.
Secondaries would likely be something like:
Domination - Battlefield Supremacy Warrior Pride - No Mercy, No Respite Heroic Challenge - Purge The Enemy
Thoughts?
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 4, 2021 13:39:26 GMT -5
Ok, time to start adjusting for points changes:
Craftworlds up first, since they received a bunch of changes that all directly affect the list.
I've kept in mind some of my lessons learned when upgrading here. Unfortunately the points changes leave a very awkward number of points to play with for this list, so it required a little bit of creative thinking.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Craftworld Attribute *Custom Craftworld*: Expert Crafters, Masters of Concealment
Detachment Command Cost
+ HQ +
Avatar of Khaine
Farseer Skyrunner: 0. Smite, 2. Doom, 4. Executioner, 6: Seer of the Shifting Vector, Shuriken Pistol, Warlord, Witchblade Blazing Star of Vaul
Warlock Skyrunner: 4. Protect/Jinx, 5. Focus Will, Shuriken Pistol, Witchblade
+ Troops +
Dire Avengers 9x Dire Avenger: 9x Avenger Shuriken Catapult, 9x Plasma Grenades Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults Exarch Power: Avenging Strikes
Guardian Defenders 15x Guardian Defender: 15x Plasma Grenades, 15x Shuriken Catapult
Guardian Defenders 15x Guardian Defender: 15x Plasma Grenades, 15x Shuriken Catapult
Rangers 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol
Rangers 5x Ranger: 5x Ranger Long Rifle, 5x Shuriken Pistol
+ Elites +
Wraithblades: Ghostaxe and Forceshield, 5x Wraithblade
+ Fast Attack +
Shining Spears 5x Shining Spear: 5x Laser Lance, 5x Twin Shuriken Catapult Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance Exarch Power: Swooping Dive
+ Heavy Support +
Dark Reapers 6x Dark Reaper: 6x Reaper Launcher Dark Reaper Exarch: Aeldari Missile Launcher Exarch Power: Rapid Shot
Support Weapons Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon Support Weapon: Vibro Cannon
Wraithseer: 0. Smite, 1. Conceal/Reveal, D-cannon
+ Dedicated Transport +
Wave Serpent: Twin Bright Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult
Changes Summarized:
- 1 Dark Reaper - 2 Vypers - Gained 56 points from MFM changes
+ 5 Axe/Shield Wraithblades + AML on Dark Reaper Exarch + Star Lance on Shining Spear Exarch + Swap Dire Avenger Exarch Power to Avenging Strikes
So, basically the points drop gives me _just_ enough points that I can upgrade the Vypers to Wraithblades, giving me another action-able-unit that can help clear objectives in combat and provide counter-charge. This list under current points is 2070, with the 56 points cleared from Reapers (3x7=21) / Avatar (35) and the 15 point discount on Wraithblades from MFM, that puts this at exactly 1999.
Unfortunately due to awkward point costing I was forced to blow 25 points on weapons/wargear rather than another body, which I'd highly prefer, but this list is already so lean on upgrades there's just no fat to trim anywhere.
I'm going to try Avenging Strikes on the Avengers next, granting them +1 to hit and wound for the whole unit once they lose 1 model as long as the exarch is alive, this combos with Shuriken Weapons needing 6+ (rather than unmodified) to wound to trigger to the AP-3 procs.
Looking forward to trying this out. The new secondary objectives will really help this list I think. It doesn't play Stranglehold well, but it has all the pieces to play the Engage/Retrieve game well, and will likely be very happy to pickup No Prisoners, Bring-It-Down, or Psychic Ritual depending on the matchup.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 4, 2021 14:38:11 GMT -5
looks like some solid changes in there... the sword/board wraithblades can be a chore to remove so really good for just sitting on an objective, doing an action and not dying!
Anytime you want to test it let me know.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 8, 2021 11:31:00 GMT -5
Ok, next up. While my Cults wasn't affected by the points changes, I've learned a LOT about how to play cults recently watching John Lennon from Art Of War's games, as well as a few other battle reports, and I've incorporated a number of changes to really lean into thinking like a Patriarch.
++ Battalion Detachment 0CP (Tyranids - Genestealer Cults) ++
+ Configuration +
Battle Size: 3. Strike Force (101-200 Total PL / 1001-2000 Points)
Cult Creed: The Twisted Helix
+ Stratagems +
Grandsire's Gifts: 1 Extra Sacred Relic
+ HQ +
Magus: Familiar, Power: Might From Beyond, Power: Psychic Stimulus, Stratagem: The Cult's Psyche, The Crouchling
Patriarch: Elixir of the Prime Specimen, Power: Mass Hypnosis, Power: Mutagenic Deviation, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Biomorph Adaptation
+ Troops +
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon 6x Acolyte Hybrid: 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges, 6x Cultist Knife, 6x Rending Claw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon 6x Acolyte Hybrid: 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges, 6x Cultist Knife, 6x Rending Claw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Acolyte Hybrids: Cult Icon 6x Acolyte Hybrid: 6x Autopistol, 6x Blasting Charges, 6x Cultist Knife, 6x Rending Claw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Hybrid (Heavy Weapon): Autopistol, Heavy Rock Saw Acolyte Leader: Autopistol, Cultist Knife
Neophyte Hybrids 19x Neophyte Hybrid (Shotgun): 19x Autopistol, 19x Blasting Charges, 19x Shotgun Neophyte Leader: Autopistol, Chainsword
+ Elites +
Aberrants 7x Aberrant (Pick): 7x Power Pick, 7x Rending Claw
Sanctus: Silencer Sniper Rifle
+ Fast Attack +
Achilles Ridgerunners Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser
Achilles Ridgerunners Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser Achilles Ridgerunner: Flare Launcher, Heavy Mining Laser
+ Dedicated Transport +
Goliath Truck
Goliath Truck
Goliath Truck
++ Patrol Detachment -2CP (Imperium - Astra Militarum) ++
+ Configuration +
Detachment Command Cost
Regimental Doctrine
+ HQ +
Tank Commander: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon 2 Heavy Bolters
Tank Commander: Heavy Bolter, Turret-mounted Demolisher Siege Cannon 2 Heavy Bolters
+ Troops +
Militarum Tempestus Scions 2x Scion: 2x Frag & Krak grenades, 2x Hot-shot Lasgun Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun Scion w/ Special Weapon: Hot-shot Volley Gun Tempestor: Chainsword, Plasma pistol
Ok, LOTS to digest here, let's start with what's NOT in the list anymore:
Clamvus and Kelermoprh have been sidelined, and Neophytes carrying Mining Lasers are out as well. I've leaned down to 2 Cult HQs, and most notably the Wyvern has lost it's slot due to repeated poor performances. Autoguns are out as well, S3 is just horrific for clearing literally anything, even with massed firepower.
Additions:
First, I've fully embraced the Twisted Helix here, really leaning into Acolytes more. I've leaned out my upgrades and spread Triple-Rock-Saw loadouts across 3x10 Acolyte units with Cult Icons. I've learned the ways of Cult Reinforcements and Genetic Lineage to really help push Acolytes across the board and take advantage of the monstrous +2 to Advances provided by the Helix, while also providing Goliaths all around as well for both the Twin Autocannons to plink wounds, extra movement provided by disembarkation, and early-game durability boost for the units.
I've leaned out the Abberant loadout to just Power Picks for now. Hopefully the next dex makes the unit/hypermorph cost a lot less and I'll add back in the sweet Improvised Weapon modelling opportunity.
I've added the Sanctus, mostly for the modelling opportunity than competitiveness, but hopefully once The Gift From Beyond is fixed he'll feel a lot more like a Vindicare/Calexus Assassin and put some fear into Psykers. I really wanted to squeeze Gift in for his Sniper Rifle but I cannot justify 2CP, or giving up The Crouchling or Elixir Of The Prime Specimen for it.
Neophytes are condensed into a large blob of character insulation for Unquestioning Loyalty for the Magus/Patriarch to support the Acolytes as they move up board. They also will likely be a source of actions but Shotguns can do some work at close range if need be.
One of the few places I haven't touched is my 2x2 Ridgerunner setup, I don't want to commit too-hard to them as I feel like I'll only set myself up to be rug-pulled with the new book if they get adjusted, but these guys are just too solid atm to touch.
Over to my Brood Brothers, Tank Commanders are still Tank Commandering, and escaped the wrath of a points increase dispite their surging popularity. I'm _really_ tempted to swap for a Triple Heavy Flamer setup instead of Heavy Bolters, or to just drop the sponsons completely and free up 60 points to go elsewhere.
Scions were swapped in for the modelling opportunity as well, these guys are basically here for actions, and I burned 10 stupid-points on a couple Hot-Shot-Volley-Guns here just for lols, those points are almost certainly better spent elsewhere, perhaps on a Cult Icon for the Neophytes or squeeze a 5th Ridgerunner in should I also decide to drop the Sponsons on the Tank Commanders.
This list is more of a theory-list as I'm only able to play it at this points level on TTS for the moment, but I am working towards building this up IRL with more of the core pieces being picked up slowly as time goes by. Suggestions, improvement, or other advice is greatly appreciated here as I'm doing my best not to buy dust collectors.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 8, 2021 12:54:29 GMT -5
GSC list is much improved. Sure it's basically codex acolytes and ridgerunners currently, but I'm with you on the not going crazy with ridgerunners right now as that model might get nerfed with the new dex, whereas acolytes will still likely be fine as they're troops.
I hear you on the aberrants. Not even going to put them in a game currently because every time they just make me sad
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Post by voodoo on Jun 8, 2021 13:07:08 GMT -5
Also re: Relics, hopefully they get the same "buy any relic for an additional CP" strat that all of the other 9th books are getting.
As for the list itself, I can't claim to know anything about GSC over what Shannon's told me about them so I'll simply offer a "Hooray! Listbuilding" encouragement.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jun 17, 2021 7:25:28 GMT -5
More GSC pondering since I'm actually starting assembly of my Combat Patrol list for them this week.
I was intrigued a bit by thinking about some advice I found on youtube recently, which was that GSC are seen by opponent's as "the deepstrike anything" army, which leads to my opponent's expecting me to be deepstriking all over the board and spending huge amounts of CP on Perfect Ambush or Lying In Wait.
So... what if I just DIDN'T. What if my game plan was NOT to use Perfect Ambush at all? What would my list change to play without leaning on reserves so hard? What if I leaned even harder into strategies like move-blocking and playing the strangehold/board-control game instead of the engage-on-all-fronts game?
Well, the first thing that happens is, I suddenly have 4 more CP (3 for Perfect Ambush, 1 for reroll charge).
The second thing that happens, is the Abberants likely have to go into hiding for a while, without PA they just cannot be delivered to a target safely, and cannot perform the "elite infantry problem solver" role, which honestly they aren't really that great at anyways atm.
The next thing that needs to happen, is I need move-blocking units. And there's something special in my heart that's in the Guard codex that I'd probably say is a pretty solid top-tier move blocker unit with benefits.
Another item is I probably need another "away from the action" objective camper unit, easy enough to get and still get some utility and role coverage via Scions, and a unit only costs 45 points, 55 with HSVGs.
Finally, without leaning on Reserves as hard, and planning to deploy almost entirely to the board, I need non-LOS weaponry, thankfully Guard has a huge array of options here. The current meta-choice is a Manticore, but I feel like the Basilisk is a close runner up. the Manticore has the hilarious side benefit of for just 5 points more I can run a Deathstrike in casual games too. Not entirely settled here but I really want an arty piece for the "look" of the army I'm creating so this is an itch I can likely wait to scratch once we see the new Guard dex.
Here's a shorthand summary of the potential list with these changes.
GSC Battalion - Twisted Helix
Patriarch - Relic: Elixir, Warlord: Biomorph, Powers: Mass Hypnosis, Mutagenic Deviation Magus - Familiar, Strat: The Cult's Psyche, Relic: The Crouchling, Powers: Might From Beyond, Psychic Stimulus, Mind Control
10 Acolyte Hybrids - 4 Heavy Rock Drills, Cult Icon 10 Acolyte Hybrids - 3 Heavy Rock Saws, Cult Icon 10 Acolyte Hybrids - 3 Heavy Rock Saws, Cult Icon 20 Neophyte Hybrids - Shotguns
Sanctus - Silencer Sniper Rifle
2 Achilles Ridgerunners - 2 Heavy Mining Lasers, 2 Flare Launchers 2 Achilles Ridgerunners - 2 Heavy Mining Lasers, 2 Flare Launchers
Goliath Truck Goliath Truck Goliath Truck
Astra Militarum Patrol - Brood Brothers
Tank Commander - Demolisher Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Hunter Killer Missile
5 Scions - 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns 5 Scions - 2 Hot Shot Volley Guns
Hellhound - Inferno Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Track Guards Hellhound - Inferno Cannon, Heavy Flamer, Track Guards
Manticore - Storm Eagle Rockets, Heavy Flamer
So looking at this, there's a LOT more CP available, and it's far more tactically diverse. Unlike the previous iterations of this list, there's no "obvious plan" where you can expect unit X is going to come on Turn 2, or Units X/Y/Z are going to be working together, and there's a LOT of aggression, area denial, and it can play both a Engage/Data game as well as a Stranglehold based secondary game as well, as long as you have 1 CP, you're opponent has to watch their back because of Return To The Shadows, and opponent's will be more likely to leave their guard down with your forces on the table. The 1CP for Scanner Decoys also becomes an affordable option to create confusion and deployment options.
This list has a very different mindset, but perhaps that's a good thing, given the old mindset is slowly dying a horrible death as 9th continues to roll forward.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 17, 2021 8:08:36 GMT -5
I've seen acolytes in trucks being used as a fairly cheap on the board presence that can possibly kill something if the truck somehow survives. If you're going 10 man squads, the trucks aren't a terrible option.
If you focus on non-kill secondaries you definitely have some play, as GSC can do a decent secondary game for about 3 turns of the game. You're looking at the first three turns rather than turns 2-4, which is certainly a viable strategy.
Seems to play more as guard than GSC, but I see where you're going with it.
I much prefer the kellermorph to the sanctus. I find the changes in 9th really hurt the sanctus (who was pretty situational to begin with but with the relic he could take out casters decently enough - but with the no stacking to hit bonuses it's not as good)
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