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Post by lightcavalier on Jul 29, 2021 10:09:05 GMT -5
I did a similar analysis on the Drukhari strats when I was building my list, I think i had it whittled down to
Will be used basically every game
Cruel Deception - lets me fall back and shoot/or charge (or both) Hunt from the Shadows - gives an extra +1 to the save of units benefiting from Light cover Lighting Fast Reactions - -1 to hit when shot at/in fight phase Never Stationary - 7" move after shooting (cant charge) Prey on the Weak - bonus to hit and wound against half strength or below units
These abilities will either keep me alive scoring points or help me get to an objective.
Will be used situationally depending on mission/enemy/1st or 2nd turn/other conditions
Potent Metallotoxins - poison works on vehicles Insidious Misdirection - PT Kabal can redeploy 3 units at start of 1st battle round, including putting them in reserve Murderous Descent - disembark and charge after arriving from reserve Enhanced Aethersails - 8" auto advance Haywire Grenade - MW on vehicles Swift Outflanking - lets me toss a transport into reserve if it is near a board edge Screaming Jets - lets me put a raider/ravager in deep strike
These are all situational, but a bunch of them combo well together to help rpotect me from 1st turn shooting or to out manouver another fast opponent
But honestly I start the game with 11 CP in my current 1500 pt list and routinely end the game with 7 or 8 CP remaining because I just dont have anything to spend it on as a Kabal player.
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Post by cmcd on Jul 29, 2021 21:51:43 GMT -5
Guerilla Tactics is my favourite. So useful and forgotten.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Sept 24, 2021 14:48:18 GMT -5
Since my Space Wolves are nearing table-readiness, and are my only 9th edition codex army, here's what it looks like broken down as an escalation force. Since the final 2k list was purpose-built to be endgame of a campaign/narrative/escalation series of games, it actually translates quite well to this format imo.
I've assumed that Warlord Traits have to stay on the model they are put on at writing time of this post, or get removed if the warlord changes. Pending my question being answered in the tournament thread
Space Wolves Escalation:
500:
1000:
1500:
2000:
Very interesting dynamic on this list's escalation path. It's highly flexible given I can add or increase size of units very easily, and there's lots of small/cheap units. Interestingly there's lots of opportunity to "hot swap" the order with several units costing very-close values in points, and adjusting the Cyberwolves count provide an excellent way to use "extra" points and make things fit.
At 500 it has a LOT of bodies for the points level, and plays the objective game extremely with with lots of anti-character capability.
At 1000 it adds heavy-hitters with Biker Chappy, 3x TCav and the VLD all nicely squeezing in to the party bus together with jsut enough room left to bring a 2nd Cyberwolf.
At 1500 the list fills out to Battalion strength, adding more of everything and giving the Chappy a promotion to Master of Sanctity for all his hate-hate-hating on the enemy.
At 2000 it's the same list I've previously shown in this thread.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Sept 25, 2021 14:45:41 GMT -5
So I was looking over the list I posted above, since it had been a while, and suddenly while looking at my Chaplain's unit entry the ghost of Voodoo spoke to me.... just a mess. <Snip> you're just asking too much from what you have presented here. Taking a closer look, I realized Ghost of Voodoo was right. Chappys gear setup is unfocused and disjointed at best. He's got a relic meant for a beatstick, but his powers are setup for support, but his trait wants him to lead the charge... Just a mess... So after a quick rejigger: Primaris Chaplain on Bike Chapter Command: Master of Sanctity Warlord: Wise Orator Warrior of Legend: Saga of Majesty Relic: Armour of Russ Litanies: Hate, Faith, Rage It's a small, but very significant tweak because it allows a total shift in the playstyle. This is a pure army-support build that can distribute buffs across a huge 9" Aura, and everything in the list other than the cyberwolves and the VLDs have either CORE or CHARACTER keyword to allow the auras to be bestowed. Thanks ghost of Voodoo!
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Post by voodoo on Sept 27, 2021 9:44:31 GMT -5
LOL, No problem?
I run into the same issue all the time. I see a character as doing "X" job because they can smash, or cast, shoot, etc. etc. I had that problem with Overlords. Their weapon says "put me where I may smash", but their traits, abilities, buffs, etc say "let me shepherd my flock far away from the front lines of battle".
It took me **ahem** longer than I would like to admit before I listened and kept them "safe" behind their troops, leading from the back, letting the mindless rabble take the hits for them as befitting a Noble of their rank and status.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Oct 15, 2021 10:19:17 GMT -5
***OBLIGATORY LONG POST WARNING***
Ok, I've hit the games-played threshold where it's time for some list/performance evaluations. I've played at 2000 a few times on TTS and had had several Incursion level games at 1000 with my actually owned/built models. Here's the summary:
The Excellent:
Cyberwolves. Holy smokes. These guys are little scoring machines. Running them in 2s or 3s seems to be a great setup, very small and easy to hide, just enough wounds they can make an overwatch-eating charge, lock in 3VP for Warrior Pride, or act as a magnet for Pack Hunters to bring the TWC rampaging through. They also screen against deepstrike like absolute bosses, and for 30 points for 2 they are so much utility at a bargain basement price. The only problem is I wish I had like 5 more fast attack slots to take more of them.
Primaris Phobos Rune Priest (Librarian) This guy is also an absolute unit. With Armour of Russ on him he actually blends extremely well for a 100 point character, and the thought of upgrading him to Chief Libby for a 3rd Tempestas power (probably Living Lightning) has me frothing at the mouth for my next game(s). He's a little less front-liny at 2000, but I was geuinely surprised what Smite + Force Sword will do to an MEQ target.
The Good:
For some of my in-person Incursion games, I hadn't received my box of Incursors yet, and ran with a 10x Assault Intercessors unit instead as my troops. The big block has tons of attacks, and the only thing I felt could be improved was that giving Sarge a Fist or Hammer would help a lot when getting into the situation where you need to pop a 2CP Savage Strike to blend something in the T5/6/7 range with the huge volume of attacks.
Eliminators have pulled their weight for sure, and their cloaks + light cover for a 1+ save makes them an absolute tick to dig out from a backfield objective. PHOBOS keyword + Guerilla Tactics + ROD has won me games with cheeky T4 redeploys.
TWC Have met expectations as well, their weapons loadout needs a little tweaking through. All TH/SS makes for expensive wounds when you roll poorly and I think I maybe want one or two Chainsword or Power Weapons to take wounds first when they inevitably draw the opponent's attention.
Vindicators are hilarious. They definitely stay. There's nothing more satisfying than when I manage to hit all 3 hits/wounds on the overcharge profile and watch my opponent go "wait... 6 Damage EACH?!?!".
The Bad:
What issues I've had from the list seem to come from having the right tools in the wrong places at the wrong times. Summarized as bullet points from my post-match notes:
- Bjorn's shooting is excellent, and his Character/T8/Duty-Eternal/5+++ profile is hilariously tough, but he rarely makes combat before T3/T4, and doesn't really project his threat well. He often wants to go forward to turn on Aura of Majesty, but can't keep up with my other forward units. - Lack of Charge Rerolls is a problem when taking Warrior Pride, the Wulfen Stone helps, but only applies to CORE, forcing my CHARACTERS to often use my CP reroll when they just have to hit that 6-7 inch or longer charge. - I'm definitely a little light on anti-tank, I've struggled a bit more than I'm comfortable with against Parking Lots of T7 vehicles. Guard _should_ be a good matchup for me, but instead it's difficult to break through a wall of armour. - I have a _little_ too much support, and not enough bodies. I feel like going a bit more infantry heavy would help in situations where I want to do things like raise multiple Banners on T1, and help deal with opponents who want to play Stranglehold based gameplans. - Inceptors are a LOT of points tied up in a single trading unit that typically comes in and deletes something off an objective, and dies in return. These guys are likely going to be the source of points I use to achieve my improvements.
List Update Goals:
So with that all said, my goals of this list revision are: - Spend more points on units that can do things, and less on things that support other units - Redistribute some of my abilities onto different platforms, so that things that need to be together have an easier time staying together. - Embed some more anti-tank into units, rather than having all dedicated anti-tank firepower. Fists and Hammers can output serious damage on an A3 Sargent profile. (Shoutout to LizardTau's BA for this trick)
Change Summary:
- Bjorn, The Fell Handed - Primaris Chaplain on Bike - 5x Inceptors - 1x Cyberwolf - A few wargear tweaks
+ Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf + 5x Aggressors + Murderfang + 5x Wolf Guard + A few wargear tweaks
Full List:
Battalion: Space Wolves, 9CP, 1999PTS
HQ: Phobos Librarian - Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Hero Of The Chapter: Psychic Mastery, Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Storm Caller, Relic: The Armour Of Russ Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf - TH/SS, Warlord: Imperium's Sword, Warrior of Legend: Resolve Of The Bear, Relic: Pelt Of The Balewolf
Troops: 10 Assault Intercessors - Pack Leader w HBP/PF 5 Incursors 5 Incursors
Elite: 5 Aggressors - Flamestorm Gauntlets 5 Hounds of Morkai Murderfang 5 Wolf Guard - Jump Packs, 4x LC/SS, Pack Leader w TH/SS
Fast: 2 Cyberwolves 2 Cyberwolves 4 Thunderwolf Calvary - 2x CS/SS, 2x TH/SS
Heavy: 3 Eliminators - Bolt Sniper Rifles Vindicator Laser Destroyer Vindicator Laser Destroyer
Biggest change is subbing Bjorn and Biker Chappy for a Bear/Balewolf Lord and Murderfang, which adds significant blending power, and both reroll their own charges which should make them non-CP-reroll reliant and help improve my score on Warrior Pride towards 12/15 with less of a struggle.
The Lord in particular is build I discovered re-reading the now-year-old Goonhammer article on Space Wolves during their release period. Resolve of the Bear providing an off-switch on rerolls and Pelt of the Balewolf giving -1 to hit/wound against a T5 TH/SS Profile seems like significant durablity, and doesn't fall into the Armour of Russ pitfall I've stumbled on a couple times of relying on swinging first and your opponent not having access to Only In Death Does Duty End or similar fight-on-death triggers. He's obviously nowhere near good enough to be fighting Ghazskull/Silent-King/etc type characters, but he should blend fairly hard against all but the toughest of targets with that S10 Thunder Hammer. Conveniently, if he doesn't work as well as I hope, he's the exact same number of points as Herald Deathwolf, who subs the Pelt for Mantle Of the Troll King, and has slightly different utility benefits than the Vanilla Lord.
Murderfang needs no explanation. He's a dreadnought sized industrial blender. Point, Click, Cleanup with mop.
Second biggest change is the Gravis Armour side-grade. I've essentially swapped 5 Inceptors for 5 Aggressors and 5 Wolf Guard to spread the abilities/role of the unit onto 2 cheaper units. The Aggressors provide the secondary anchor for midboard previously filled by Bjorn while the Wolf Guard provide High AP blending power and speed/agility. Multiple units also gives more Action power for Banners/ROD. I am so glad I tried Inceptors on TTS before I ordered two boxes. That would have been an expensive oof.
Secondaries for this remain the same, usually being a combination of Shock-Tactics/Engage/Behind-Enemy-Lines, Warrior-Pride/Grind-Them-Down, and ROD/Banners/Mission-Secondary as my common pre-game thought process.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Oct 25, 2021 12:31:40 GMT -5
Another more-tweaked version I've been considering while I waited for layers of paint to dry over the weekend:
Battalion: Space Wolves, 9CP, 1998PTS
HQ: Phobos Librarian - Chapter Command: Chief Librarian, Hero Of The Chapter: Psychic Mastery, Powers: Living Lightning, Murderous Hurricane, Storm Caller, Relic: The Armour Of Russ
Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf - TH/SS, Warlord: Imperium's Sword, Warrior of Legend: Resolve Of The Bear, Relic: Pelt Of The Balewolf
Troops: 10 Assault Intercessors - Pack Leader w HBP/PF 5 Incursors 5 Incursors
Elite: 5 Aggressors - Flamestorm Gauntlets 5 Reivers - Combat Knives 5 Wolf Guard - Jump Packs, 3x LC/SS, 2x TH/SS Wulfen Dreadnought - Fenrisian Great Axe, Blizzard Shield, Heavy Flamer
Fast: 2 Cyberwolves 2 Cyberwolves 4 Thunderwolf Cavalry - 2x Axe/SS, 2x TH/SS
Heavy: 3 Eliminators - Bolt Sniper Rifles Vindicator Laser Destroyer - Hunter Killer Vindicator Laser Destroyer - Hunter Killer
At this point I've played over a dozen games and the Hounds have been more useful than regular Reiver's exactly once when they outflanked and sniped a Weirdboy. No one I've been playing has been running Psykers lately. Thinking of trying them as regulars Reivers for a few games to see if the Terror Troops Aura and/or Shock Grenades are useful at all. They are staying in the list as either Hounds or Reivers cus I like the models, but man those psyker rules never seem to come up right now.
Wulfen Dread with the Axe/Shield instead of Murderfang. This is mostly just for aesthetics/fun (I really like the look of that giant axe/shield combo), but in terms of what I'm asking for from this unit rules-wise, the _lack_ of character protection is actually the upgrade here. I don't want people shooting through my other units to get to Murderfang because they are afraid of him. 4++/Duty Eternal is hopefully enough durability to shake a few hits if I can't keep him out of LOS.
Extra points are fluffed out with Axes instead of Chainswords on two of the Tcav for few pips of strength/ap, and a 2nd Thunder Hammer for the Wolf Guard and some Hunter Killers to fill the 10 point discount on the Reiver/Hounds swap so it's easily swapped back.
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