Petition for CSM

[raceygaming]

So some people may have seen the new codex release schedule and release that many factions will have to wait until Jan to look forward to anything major.

I think that GW has made a poor choice in the treatment for Chaos Space Marines (CSM) considering what their loyalist counter parts have. I would like to put forward a local house rule for the Nexus area:

Any Chaos Space marine can add ONE additional Wound to a "marine" model for +5 points per model. The following Data sheets count as "marine"

Chaos Space marines
Warp Talons
Raptors
Havocs
Terminators
Chosen
Berserkers
Noise Marines


I know it doesn't take everything into account in terms of balance but GW has really been dragging their feet. I think it starting to feel pretty bad when such a comparable units the tactical marine already has points. Just wanted to get a feel for this in the community, how do people feel about this?

I am really hoping that the Chapter Approved in Oct/Nov sorts this issue but a local band-aid might help some more stuff see play.

[Typhus]

I feel like 5 points is a bit steep - Tactical Marines (and their ilk), Rubric Marines, and Plague Marines all went up by 3 points for their extra wound (and are all fairly underwhelming, at that). Grey Knight Strikes only went up by 2!

I think +3 points/model is more than fair for the extra Wound (+5 instead for Terminators only).

That said, I'm all for it in principle.

EDIT: I'd also like to propose a caveat that if any units in your army pay for the Wound upgrade, then all eligible units MUST (to prevent min-maxing, say a 20-man CSM unit with 2 Wounds but then the suicide Havocs choosing not to in order to reduce costs).

[Jack Shrapnel]

would agree that if we do this, it would need to be an "all or nothing" thing as per Kevin's suggestion.

+3 points / model seems fair and what most of them have been (strike squads excepted of course)

EDIT: I added a poll, can add options if anyone has any suggestions

[Typhus]

Chaos Bikers should also be added to the list.

[raceygaming]

I agree with bikers, I knew I was forgetting some.

100% agree with the if you choice to upgrade your list to two wounds, you MUST do it to every model. No mix and match.

I have voted for 5 pts/model only because the standard that I think best equates for CSM to SM is that a tactical marine was 13 ppm, when if got 2 wounds it went to 18ppm, for a total of +5 ppm. I understand that tactical marines are not the shining example of a meta pick but I thought the house rule would be nice to let players get stuff on the table rather than than trying to balance into the new meta. I'm more in the camp of make them not trash, rather than balance them.
Also for example grey knights, Rubric and Death guard don't get shock assault( hateful assault) but rather are +1 attack on the data sheet. Since old CSM still have old rules from a Codex that is overdue, maybe start small. Again I'm hoping this is more of a band-aid fix until Oct/Nov Chapter Approved.

In the end, I just know I've see like 3 chaos lists in all of 9th and maybe this would at least get some people to think about it for teams, especially since you can only have a codex/supplement once per team. Also makes Casual Saturdays a lot more fun for them.

[Typhus]

The Tactical Marine was 15 points* at the dawn of 9th edition, and went to 18 after getting the second Wound.

From Warhammer Community:
"The aforementioned Tactical Marine will clock in at 18pts for his extra Wound (20% more than he is today)"

15 * 1.2 = 18

*1 point more than the Chaos Space Marine - ostensibly to account for Combat Doctrines, et al.

EDIT: And I have the Google Doc to prove it -
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IRnHYqQfUNymy6be2vn9iZAczaR8HTblA-Id1qEBnlU/edit#gid=0

[raceygaming]

That sounds good then. I obviously miss remembered my points they must have been 13 at the end of 8th.
+3ppm in power armour and +5ppm on terminator armour sounds good then.

I shall change by vote.

[raceygaming]

Aug 13, 2021 22:48:56 GMT -5 raceygaming said:

That sounds good then for CSM. I obviously miss remembered my points they must have been 13 at the end of 8th.

I did go into battle scribe and re-examine some if the units. And I'd like to propose a hybrid of what we have

+3ppm for CSM troops
+5 ppm for anything else.

The direct comparison to tactical marines shown above make the 3ppm feel good on troop units.

However with things like more access to special weapons, death to the false emperor, and other special abilities the biker, talons, Raptors, terminators, havocs, chosen, noise and berserkers arent really as easy to draw comparisons for. again not trying to make CSM meta just not a trash tier.

For example a havoc with heavy bolter is 27 pts its T5, move and shoot no pentality.
A Dev marine with Heavy bolter is 28 pts its T4 2W no special rule.
A 2W havoc probably should be closer to 33 pts.

I know I opened a can of worms here with my proposal to trying to balance a codex locally but it felt like something good to try to help make a weak faction playable again since there is an easy comparison faction.

[Jack Shrapnel]

may I suggest a hybrid approach if we do this at all?

CSM +3 pts / model
Bikes, talons, raptors, terminators, havocs, chosen, cult troops (noise/berserkers) +5 pts / model

The difference it makes in a terminator is a LOT more significant than a standard csm.

I'd rather err on the side of caution than not.

Again, if we do this at all.

And I'm somewhat hesitant to do this for tournaments to be honest. Much like I don't bring out my starwars fandexes to tournaments, I think house ruling an army does make a slippery slope when it comes to a tournament. An FAQ interpretation is fine of course - but this is fairly significant change to an army, that an out of town attendee for example (as we say goodbye to covid they will return I'm certain) would be a little miffed to run across an army that we've houseruled different locally.

I'm saying this as I'm currently painting csm and frustrated at their lack of an extra wound like loyalists and that we have to wait six months minimum for an adjustment they told us was coming a year ago.

[Typhus]

I can get down with CSM +3/model and everything else at +5/model.

Personally, I'd be more than happy to play against such a list at a tournament - I'll be bringing Grey Knights to the next few events, so I stand to gain nothing from it.

If it were put into the signup page that such a houserule is going to be in play (and a link to a 2W CSM Battlescribe roster?), that would be fair warning I think.

[question]

I'm good with the +3/+5 formula locally. I also see Shannon's point re. tournaments. Slippery slope indeed.

[raceygaming]

Aug 14, 2021 8:34:19 GMT -5 Jack Shrapnel said:

may I suggest a hybrid approach if we do this at all?

CSM +3 pts / model
Bikes, talons, raptors, terminators, havocs, chosen, cult troops (noise/berserkers) +5 pts / model

The difference it makes in a terminator is a LOT more significant than a standard csm.

I'd rather err on the side of caution than not.

Again, if we do this at all.

And I'm somewhat hesitant to do this for tournaments to be honest. Much like I don't bring out my starwars fandexes to tournaments, I think house ruling an army does make a slippery slope when it comes to a tournament. An FAQ interpretation is fine of course - but this is fairly significant change to an army, that an out of town attendee for example (as we say goodbye to covid they will return I'm certain) would be a little miffed to run across an army that we've houseruled different locally.

I'm saying this as I'm currently painting csm and frustrated at their lack of an extra wound like loyalists and that we have to wait six months minimum for an adjustment they told us was coming a year ago.

I like this and am happy to be a guinea pig if any one wants to test out this suggested point costing.

[matthewbri]

I would say wait for dex. This is a bit of a pandora's box.

[cmcd]

I also would wait for the codex. There is likely a reason why Chaos Space Marines only have one wound. They are after all tainted.

CSM can be put into units of 20. 20 objective secure space marines with a total of 40 wounds is ridiculous at a cost of 340 (280 + 3x20).

Also CSM DID get an update in the Act 2 book of war zone charadon. If GW wanted to make their CSM to have 2 wounds they would have mentioned something.

I think opening the door to this would be negative in the community.

[Frosty the Pirate]

I realize it's a bit unpopular to say no to house ruling this, but I really think it's for the best. CSM have some rules that are broken, but also some rules that are not-9th-friendly, and I strongly agree they need a massive rebalanced/rework in order to make W2 viable. If we're going to give them W2, why not rebalance the points too? Or maybe we should fix Veterans Of The Long War to be 2CP since that's in the other released chaos books too? Why not give Daemon Engines their WS/BS 3+? The slope is real icy.

I understand the pain CSM players are going through, but house-ruling isn't the answer. The idea that "CSM are completely unplayable without W2" is quite frankly ridiculous. Every marine faction played the last half dozen editions with W1 in their statline. Every time a faction is called "completely unplayable" it's by the competitive community, who quite frankly account for _maybe_ 5% of players, probably less. Unless you bring your GT-winning army list to every game of 40k you play, CSM and the other struggling factions manage just fine in "normal" games. Just arrange with your opponent that you are expecting a more casual/fun game and aren't bringing your hardcore tourny list. Not like we don't have to pre-book tables/opponents these days right?

Chaos will have their time in the sun, but GW chose this release schedule, and they are doing the best they can given the massive logistical problems in the world right now. I understand people love their warhammer, but GW isn't somehow immune to the real-world. Let's not over-react to the fallout of a slow-release schedule and the internet-theory-hammer of what we think the CSM book will look like. The book will be out soon enough.