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Post by trantos01 on Sept 6, 2021 16:47:28 GMT -5
Since it appears that using the 'canon' dynasties isn't as useful as it once might have been, I figured I'd try to really start making a list that is centered around some custom traits.
Circumstance of Awakening: Relentlessly Expansionist, Dynastic Tradition: Unyielding (All units have 6+ invul if they don't have a better one)
-HQ-
Overlord: Hand of the Phaeron, Relic: Voltaic Staff, Staff of Light, Warlord, Warlord Trait: Immortal Pride Royal Warden: Relic Gauss Blaster Technomancer: Canoptek Cloak, Staff of Light Arkana: Hypermaterial Ablator (one Core/canoptek unit within 9 will treat all attacks outside of 12' as if it was in light cover)
Dynastic Advisor -Chronomancer: Aeonstave, Chronotendrils
+ Troops + Immortals: 10x Immortal, Tesla Carbine
Necron Warriors 20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Reaper): 10x Gauss Reaper
Necron Warriors 20x Necron Warrior (Gauss Flayer): 10x Gauss Flayer
+ Elites + Triarch Stalker: Stalker's Forelimbs, Twin Heavy Gauss Cannon
+ Fast Attack + Canoptek Wraiths -Canoptek Wraith (Claws): Vicious Claws -3x Canoptek Wraith (Claws/Particle Caster): 3x Particle Caster, 3x Vicious Claws
Canoptek Wraiths -4x Canoptek Wraith (Claws): 4x Vicious Claws
+ Heavy Support + Doomsday Ark: Doomsday Cannon, 2x Gauss Flayer Array Doomsday Ark: Doomsday Cannon, 2x Gauss Flayer Array Doomsday Ark: Doomsday Cannon, 2x Gauss Flayer Array The bonus move can shift my army around based on what the opponent deploys where and more importantly, gets around some of the sheer slowness of Necrons (and the short range of the Reapers).
The Arkana, Chronomancer and Unyielding is based around keeping my infantry alive as long as possible but honestly I don't know how often a 6+ invul is going to come into play. Because it will only matter if the warriors get hit by AP-3 and the Immortals by AP-4 weapons.
Aside from that the plan is simple, march forward, park my infantry on as many objectives as possible, sacrifice the wraiths to slow down the enemy as needed and just keep shooting until the end of turn 5.
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Post by Typhus on Sept 6, 2021 17:09:19 GMT -5
Unyielding seems to be wasted in this list - most of your units already have an invulnerable save, and you're paying for a Chronomancer to upgrade one unit from a 6++ to a 5++.
I think the Necron codex is pretty much solved at this point - if you're not running Relentless Conquerors as your Dynastic Code, you should probably be leaning very heavily into Novokh melee.
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 6, 2021 17:26:41 GMT -5
Unyielding seems to be wasted in this list - most of your units already have an invulnerable save, and you're paying for a Chronomancer to upgrade one unit from a 6++ to a 5++. I think the Necron codex is pretty much solved at this point - if you're not running Relentless Conquerors as your Dynastic Code, you should probably be leaning very heavily into Novokh melee. That's why I asked. I don't know how often a 6++ will come into play. As for the Obsec on everybody, I've very rarely run into situations where an objective is contested and it would help. Either I have an Ark sitting on it or a swarm of warriors/Immortals.
Enemy deep strikes a squad of infantry into the backline etc? Obsec on the Arks isn't going to help because it's one unit versus 5 to 10 and more often than not, they have Obsec as well meaning they get it anyway. Similarly I can't keep the warriors or immortals in combat if I can help it because nearly everything is better than them at it. Instead I use the Warden so they can fall back an inch and shoot everything.
My next option for tradition would be reroling one wound roll per set. Not super useful for the warriors/immortals but more so for the Arks and characters.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 6, 2021 17:48:01 GMT -5
I've found the obsec essential on units such as scarabs etc. that can charge up the board and cap midfield objectives. Also if they're already obsec (warriors/immortals) they count as double obsec, which comes up as well.
And one obsec model takes an objective from any non obsec unit no matter how big... good trick in the back pocket to have
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 6, 2021 18:12:25 GMT -5
I honestly can't remember the last time I brought scarabs to a fight. Mostly because unless you're lucky enough to have terrain close enough to hide behind; they last about as long as an ice cube in a frying pan the minute anything actually bothers to shoot at them. And if they're holding an objective, things would be shooting/attacking them unless you're hidden away on the backline.
Though who knows, try out the obsec rule with this list for a couple of games to see if it's nice to have or 'useful, but never comes up'.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 6, 2021 18:33:41 GMT -5
I think you'll find it comes up alot more than the 6++ would... But again that's just me, and I play a different style of list with necrons than you do, so what works for me might not work for you of course! ie: I regularly run 18 scarabs in my lists.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Sept 6, 2021 19:32:43 GMT -5
Just speaking in general here since I'm not a necron expert, but one thing I've noticed with custom traits is basically no matter what traits or combo you create, your always going to have one solid/good one and one okish/meh one.
Obsec might not come up very often but it's an excellent utility pick. The reason it might not feel like it comes up is you opponent is aware of it and doesn't get caught off guard by it, and hence they play around it. That doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's a balanced pick.
On the subject of a 6++, it's honestly not that great. You maybe get lucky and roll a hot couple sixes here and there but in the scenarios I've tried both 6++ and 6+++ saves in, even with larger horde units it doesn't significantly change their staying power. Given the most optimized armies are generally aiming for the AP-2 + volume of fire sweetspot to deal with 4++ saves, it'll probably come up rarely if at all.
On the subject of the list in general, honestly it seems like a good list. I would agree at this point Necrons are kinda "solved" and it's mostly unit personal preferences within the generally accepted battalion or double-patrol template, or the silent king led supreme command + battalion variant. Checks all the usual boxes like anti tank, anti horde, enough obsec, some combat sweepers, etc. Well done.
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 6, 2021 21:57:41 GMT -5
Just speaking in general here since I'm not a necron expert, but one thing I've noticed with custom traits is basically no matter what traits or combo you create, your always going to have one solid/good one and one okish/meh one. Obsec might not come up very often but it's an excellent utility pick. The reason it might not feel like it comes up is you opponent is aware of it and doesn't get caught off guard by it, and hence they play around it. That doesn't mean it's bad, it just means it's a balanced pick. Well the only other traditions that aren't 100% 'meh' in my view are 'reroll one wound roll when a unit shoots or fights', 'reroll one hit roll when a unit shoots or fights', 'reroll morale tests' and 'when an enemy unit is within 1' of you, they have -1 toughness'.
The first three are CP savers while the latter is for a melee list only.
In comparison the Awakening options (you pick a dynastic tradition and circumstance of awakening) aside from the pre-game move one are far more specialized if they are useful at all. - +1S for rapid fire weapons when in 12' which are just the Gauss flayers (Warriors and Arks) and blasters (Immortals) and a Tomb blade option. or
- Vehicles can fall back and shoot at a -1 to hit and don't suffer the penalty to firing heavy weapons in melee (this latter ability effects one, maybe two units)
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 7, 2021 6:06:59 GMT -5
I've seen the rad cleansed (-1 toughness) used in lists that are extremely aggressive (lots of Skorpekh, wraiths, ophidion destroyers etc) to get space marines and the like wounded on 2's in melee. Those lists tend to have as many beneficiaries as possible to make it work. If you're doing the reroll you're often just better off with Szarekhan instead for the mortal wound protection (especially with the new tsons and grey knights running about) as well as the reroll. Again really benefits a shooting style list (arks, destroyers, doomstalkers) so leaning in hard to this. Often the "best" dynasty is just the one that suits your list the best, or you build your list to suit a certain dynasty. To be fair though, I always just take obsec and the pregame move... maybe I should be branching out a little more too
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Post by cmcd on Sept 10, 2021 13:25:32 GMT -5
I feel that this is backwards.. For me. I tend to pick Dynasty Traits after Building the army. And that comes after picking secondary Objectives.
1. Pick Secondary Objectives. 2. Build army to accommodate the Secondary Objectives 3. Select Dynasty Warlord traits and Relics to support the army in accomplishing the Objectives.
Ray's Post on quadrant building is awesome. It has definitely changed how I look at list building.
For your list I see the following to be useful
Ancient Dynasties; **Eternal Conquerors- is always a default. Having those Doomsday arks as objective secure allows them to sit of objectives in your deployment and still allow your army to advance on the mid board or enemy objectives.
Pitiless Hunters- Not useful for your army. Only have 1 unit of 20 warriors which could make use of it.
Superior Artisans- Reroll to wound once isn't that great. You have some big guns but would rather pick Masters of the Martial to increase hits.
*Masters of the Martial- With the High Str. Rerolling the wound isn't that needed. and you have a stalker, Missing hits with that stalker is awful. 6 shots I know but i have rolled all misses before, it makes for a bad day worse.
***Rad-weathered- I love this trait. and it does help you to maybe make your opponent second guess if they should get within 1" of your units. It would make your Wraiths wound Marines on 2+. and your infantry blobs on 3+ in close combat. Even your Particle Casters on the Wraiths would be wounding on 2+ in close combat.
Immovable Phalanx- Not that great here. As I assume you are going to move your Infantry up board.
Unyielding- Again not great for this list. 6++ is good. but most weapons will be to low of a AP. Warriors are the only saving grace. their 4+ would mean -3 weapons would out right remove models. But they are only 1 would models. Your wraiths already have a invul. THe only useful would be on the Doomsday Arks. But you have 3 of them. so your bound to have on fully operational all game. having a 16% chance to avoid damage, isnt the best option.
Contemptuous of the Codes- Okay ish. But would take a few turns to get to characters to make it worth a while, unless your playing a Character heavy Army.
The Unmerciful Horde- Re-rolling Moral tests are not going to save your big blobs. If it was fearless than thats different. But this Trait is meh.
Butcher- Not useful
Severed - Not bad. increase 3" for your Command Protocol could be useful when trying to keep up with the wraiths
Circumstances of awakening; The Ancients stir- you have 7 wraiths. adding 1" to their movement is useful and increasing their Pile in. But not really useful for the overall army.
Arise against the Interlopers- Okay. but not great for your list. Could help they blobs of Infantry from being overwhelmed in close combat. But meh.
***Healthy Paranoia- Here the paranoia would be good for your army. 3" increase in non-pistol weapons would give you an added bonus with the Gauss Reapers, the stalkers Heavy Gauss, the Voltaic Staff, even the Doomsday Arks' Gauss flayer arrays would benefit.
**relentlessly Expansionist- This is always great. and helps move your infantry up the board or into cover.
Isolationists- This is another meh. There are a lot of weapons in the Necron Armoury which arn't Rapid Fire. Only one unit of Warriors would make use of this. I wouldnt take it.
Warrior Nobles- I love this one too, I find it works really well with the Secondary Objective Code of Combat in the Necron book. But its hard to Field Nobles. Overlords, Lords, and CCB. Not useful for your list.
*Interplanetary Invaders- Not bad for your list. YOu do have some points wrapped up in vehicles. Your Doomsday Arks cant fire the main gun in close combat (blast) so being able to fall back and shoot is better than nothing. Though they dont really make use of the second bonus.
So I would recommend in this order; Dynastic Traditions 1. Rad-weathered 2. Eternal Conquerors 3. Masters of the Martial
Circumstances of Awakening 1. Healthy Paranoia 2. Relentlessly Expansionist 3. Interplanetary Invaders
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 10, 2021 17:27:58 GMT -5
I feel that this is backwards.. For me. I tend to pick Dynasty Traits after Building the army. And that comes after picking secondary Objectives. 1. Pick Secondary Objectives. 2. Build army to accommodate the Secondary Objectives 3. Select Dynasty Warlord traits and Relics to support the army in accomplishing the Objectives. Thing is, I find that my choice of secondaries can change dramatically depending on the objective layout and type of army/faction I'm facing. Which I don't know until after I've already made up my list for the day and arrived at Nexus. And since I can't bring all my models with me/don't want to be that guy, I don't look at my opponents army and swap around units etc in my list right before the game.
Sure I could build a hyper-aggressive melee list since I want to use 'Purge the Vermin'/Engage on all fronts and/or kill enemy-type objectives, but if the enemy has deep strikers or is an army that's better in melee than me (which is entirely possible) I'm going to flounder.
It's why I tend to build 'generalist' armies, leaning towards gunline or melee per my whims. I never know what sort of opponents I'm meeting and if they'll be able to shut down the possibility of scoring various objectives.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Sept 11, 2021 8:10:40 GMT -5
I never know what sort of opponents I'm meeting and if they'll be able to shut down the possibility of scoring various objectives. This is exactly what Quadrant Theory is kind of meant to address. The goal of the above isn't to lock-in 3 specific secondaries for your list and never change them. It's to know what secondary objectives are best for you, and how much you'll score on them, that way when you get to the table you can assess quickly and lock in ones that make sense, and easily evaluate what secondaries might be worth swapping out based on your opponent's strengths and weaknesses or if the mission specific secondary is worth swapping out for. Knowing what 4 or 5 or more secondaries are strong choices based on what your army is capable of doing is much better than taking a secondary that might be a good choice based on your opponent, but you might not be great at actually completing. For example, Bring It Down, Titan Hunter, and No Prisoners are all great picks against certain list archetypes or factions, but if your list isn't also optimized to deal the types of damage required for those secondaries then you'll struggle to score as well on them as something your list is designed around. In the few games I've played since learning the above, my average score has dramatically increased, and how I evaluate units and threats is completely different.
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 11, 2021 21:04:48 GMT -5
Well tested out the first iteration of the list today against a Dark Angel Deathwing list (with the natural transhuman, 1+ save from the shields and the -1 damage buff, those guys are really hard to kill) and did fairly well (71 to 77 points). Chronomancer defiantly improves warrior survivability but the 'grant light cover' arkana never really came into play.
Also need to think about swapping out the Wraiths for lychguard for a test. Sure they're slower and can't bounce around the battlefield, but can be revived by the technomancer and wouldn't out-run the rest of the army. Because 99% of the time, Wraiths charge forward and die, with or without inflicting decent causalities. Yes, their goal is a distraction carnifex but still....
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Post by raceygaming on Sept 12, 2021 9:09:32 GMT -5
So while I'm not an expert in Necrons I think I would end up taking something that looked like this in terms of list.
Custom - Relentlessly expansionist / eternal conquerors Battalion and Patrol - 6 CP , 1999 pts
Slotless
2x Cryptothralls
HQs Catacomb Command Barge - Hand of Phaeron, Res Orb, Telsa cannon, WTL: Enduring will (-1 damage), Relic: Voidreaper Chronomancer - literally a 5++ for warriors
Troops 20 warriors with reapers 20 warriors with reapers 5 immortals with Gauss
Fast attacks 6x Scarabs swarms 6x Scarabs swarms 5x Scarabs swarms
Heavy Support 2x Lokhust - 1x Heavy with Destructor 2x Lokhust - 1x Heavy with Destructor 2x Lokhust - 1x Heavy with Destructor
HQs Royal Warden WTL: Immortal pride , Relic: Veil of Darkness
Troops 5 Immortals w Tesla
Fast attacks
5x tomb blades with Particle beamer, shieldvanes, Nebuloscope 4x tomb blades with Particle beamer, shieldvanes, Nebuloscope
Heavy Support
1x Lokhust Heavy Destroyers
This list gives you a ton of stuff to play the game with that is 100% Obsec. Lots of smaller support units that can hide pretty well, decent back line with some heavy destroyers helping do some damage. Heavy lifting done but the warriors mid table, with both tomb blades and Scarabs being very fast and able to take great advantage of the pre-game movement and harassment potential. All the HQs have a solid support build with the Barge being able to go out on his own in turn 3+ to mop up units and get his mobility to counter other attacks. I think you could win a lot of games with this list but often you will almost be tabled by turn 5, you need to full trade away a ton of stuff in order to win.
I looked at both the silent King and C'tans and both just need so much tech support and list support, on top of a big price investment. I think that you have to build into the 3x C'tan list or something to make them work well and I don't know if that is a good generalist list.
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Post by trantos01 on Sept 12, 2021 9:42:02 GMT -5
Can't comment on the tomb blades. Don't have any and I'm never seen them used, either at Nexus or on Batreps.
Downside with the multiple large Reaper squads is that I've found it can be a bit hard to get them all firing on a target (the whole 12' range thing). I'm currently testing out 1x Reaper unit in front while Flayers are at the back with characters stuffed in between.
The CCB can be made into a killing machine with the right traits and relics but the problem is you always want him within 6' of an infantry block to hand out the +1 to hit. Most of the time I just use the cheaper footsloging version as a buff machine taking potshots with the Staff of Light from behind the lines.
Chronomancer is good but I want to bring a Technomancer as well, since he helps keep the warrior blocks in the fight (1 to 3 brought in the command phase). And if the enemy is spreading fire, spend a CP to target two infantry units (though he can also zap tomb blades if they are in range).
Scarabs are a distinct possibility and I could replace the wraith squads with them. Of course I wouldn't want them in the line of fire since they are about as squishy as grots/guardsmen/cultists. Units of three holding objectives or denying deep strikes are certainly viable. I certainly can't toss them into combat against anything that could fight back though. Space marines or Orks would use them as punching bags.
As for the Lokhust Heavy Destroyers, has anyone really messed around with them this edition? Because for +10 points compared to a D.Ark you get three 36' BS3 (rerolling 1s) shots of S10 AP-4 3d3 damage instead of d6 shots 72' S10 AP-5 d6 damage and 10 gauss flayers as secondary weapons.
On the other hand the three destroyers don't have the same survivability with 12 wounds total T5 and 3+ save instead of 14 wounds, 5++ (1CP to make 4++), 3+ armor can only be wounded on fours.
On the whole the HLDs have more consistent damage when they hit but are easier to kill, shorter ranged and don't have the same degree of anti-infantry firepower.
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