Stratagems One Use Only?

[Frosty the Pirate]

www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-all-stratagems-should-be-one-use-only.html

Very interesting piece from BOLS, speculating on how making Strategems one use per game only would help curb lists built around spamming certain strats or just using the same few strong strats over and over every turn.

Honestly I could get behind this, it's pretty rare I use the same strategem every turn already, and would really curb some styles of list that are boring and repetitive.

Thoughts?

[lightcavalier]

Nov 27, 2021 13:20:26 GMT -5 Frosty the Pirate said:

www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-all-stratagems-should-be-one-use-only.html

Very interesting piece from BOLS, speculating on how making Strategems one use per game only would help curb lists built around spamming certain strats or just using the same few strong strats over and over every turn.

Honestly I could get behind this, it's pretty rare I use the same strategem every turn already, and would really curb some styles of list that are boring and repetitive.

Thoughts?

I would be all for it, if certain abilities were returned to the dataset (melta bomb, haywire grenade, etc)

Nothing like paying 5 pts for a shock prow, then having to pay CP to use it, and then being restricted to one use per game

[lightcavalier]

Nov 27, 2021 13:20:26 GMT -5 Frosty the Pirate said:

www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-all-stratagems-should-be-one-use-only.html

Very interesting piece from BOLS, speculating on how making Strategems one use per game only would help curb lists built around spamming certain strats or just using the same few strong strats over and over every turn.

Honestly I could get behind this, it's pretty rare I use the same strategem every turn already, and would really curb some styles of list that are boring and repetitive.

Thoughts?

I would be all for it, if certain abilities were returned to the dataset (melta bomb, haywire grenade, etc)

Nothing like paying 5 pts for a shock prow, then having to pay CP to use it, and then being restricted to one use per game

[Malarks]

Or just increase the CP cost of these "OP" strats?

[Jack Shrapnel]

What a stupid idea. BOLS usual clickbait article with no substance. You're getting almost as bad as Spikey Bits.

Makes no sense. If there's OP strats that are negatively impacting the game change those, as Thomas just said. That would be the actual solution, which GW has done before. Taking away the ability to use the couple of strats that level the playing field for armies that aren't the top five just makes things worse for them, while the top armies still have all their power intact.

[Hi I'm Derek]

Nov 27, 2021 13:20:26 GMT -5 Frosty the Pirate said:

www.belloflostsouls.net/2021/11/warhammer-40k-all-stratagems-should-be-one-use-only.html

Very interesting piece from BOLS, speculating on how making Strategems one use per game only would help curb lists built around spamming certain strats or just using the same few strong strats over and over every turn.

Honestly I could get behind this, it's pretty rare I use the same strategem every turn already, and would really curb some styles of list that are boring and repetitive.

Thoughts?

Just skip the middleman and make 40k a hybrid LCG!

I actually think it would work though, at least in theory, alongside revisions in the CP economy. But as always my preferred 'solution' is to remove stratagems entirely as I think they are a purely negative influence on the game.

[artonas]

I think the issue with increasing certain strats to be more expensive doesn’t always fix the issue. The reason certain strats are so strong is the combination of a couple things. If you make a certain strat cost more then it’ll more like not be used at all or only when it can get the max potential out of it.
I like the idea of making starts once per game, but that would need a complete rehaul of how they work. You would need to give units back some of the abilities they lost like melta bombs or the dark Eldar prows abilities.

[lastcranston]

I mean the necron codex would be kind of lucky in that a fair number of our best "archtypes" would be unaffected since we have so few actually good strats but the ones we do use are pretty important for the lists that use them. Novok would be real sad if their strat went to once per game. Skorpehk and flayed ones would likely drop out of the realm of playability without the durability from theirs.

[dave]

I am definitely in favour of vastly reducing the number of strats. Make them more widely applicable and army thematic, and give specific units their abilities back.

I think aos made a good choice with 1 strat per unit per phase. You can still toss out plenty of cp, but you can't buff a single deathstar through the roof with multiple buffs.

If a particular strat is too powerful, balance it individually. In general, I'm not a huge fan of once per game abilities. Especially if it means I have to figure out the most optimal time to play each strategem in my ever increasing list of choices.

[Malarks]

I know my playstyle and list would be hamstrung if I were limited on uses of Strategems. That said, I'd be fine if they went up in cost, as well. They should be (in my opinion) a high-risk/reward tool used to give your army a flavourful boost at a crucial moment.

If Flash Gitz' shoot twice went up to 3 or 4CP, I'd be fine with it - but I also rely on them for ranged Dakka pretty heavily and losing the strat would severely reduce my Dakka output. (which is already notoriously lacking)
Ramming Speed is hilarious (but could likely come with a "deals 2 mortal wounds to the ramming unit)
Get Da Loot is essential for my scoring scheme, with piles of Grotz (or let me make all my Grots 'Orrible Shits) but if it were to cost an additional CP, it would make sense, as it is most likely to net one a pile of points (if all goes well) Increased reward? Increased cost. "IF you want to score those points, you're going to have to pay for them."

None of these are "game-breakingly good", but not being able to use them multiple times in a match would impact my playstyle a fair amount.

With how we get 1CP per turn and how so many armies have other means of gaining CP, it would make sense that the cost of some of the more potent Strats were to go up in price. It is just too easy to spam some of these Strats, as a result. [insert griping about Transhuman here]

I also agree that a lot of Strats could be worked back in to being abilities for specific units, as well.
(for example, I have no idea why Tankbusta Bombs became a strat, as opposed to just being gear)

[Frosty the Pirate]

Wow this really blew up lol. Didn't expect this level of reaction.

For the record, I'm usually pretty hesitant to read BOLS let alone post a link because their articles are usually awful.

I agree overall making all strats one use only per game would require a massive overhaul to some strats, and certain abilities would have to be changed.

Changing the CP economy would be a much lighter change for sure, even simply reducing starting CP for strike force games to say 9CP might seem small but would significantly affect choices to take extra relics or to spam a particular unit+strat combo.

Strats definitely a hot topic post GW gamer survey it seems.

[LizardTau]

starts are hard, they seem to want to put flavour in the strats, which is nice but can be hard to balance.

as people have said some of the abilities units use to have, have went to strats.

the whole, once per game and increase on cost, have done both in the past, as well as restricting starts to certain units.

I remember the iron hands supplement, they made the making an iron hands dreadnought a character only do this strat once, also they took two 1cp strats, over watch on a 4+ (before overwatch cost a cp) and deny a psychic power on a 4+ and made them 2cp. all of these were needed as iron hands had everything at the time.

they have more recently restricted trans human to primaris, which probably didnt help anything since primais units are still very strong.

i think it depends on the strat, the army and the game in general.

[Hi I'm Derek]

Nov 27, 2021 18:36:21 GMT -5 Frosty the Pirate said:

Strats definitely a hot topic post GW gamer survey it seems.

I think strats have been a contentious point of post 8th game design since their introduction. They're a concept that... possibly never actually hit any of its stated design goals, but are nevertheless fundamental to the 8th-9th era game experience. So naturally lots of strong opinions all around.

[lightcavalier]

IMHO command points should stay but with the following modifications

1. Some unit abilities should cost CP to activate (and not be restricted to once per phase....if I want to use 4x raiders shock props theb let me burn 4 CP and do so)...in this vein stratagems that just activate specific unit abilities or warhead should be folded back into unit datasheets

2. What remains of stratagems should be the big swing abilities (redeploy, commanding oratory, etc)

Lastly noting that actually makes a unit worth using should be locked behind CP....ie if a unit is bad unless you active 1 or more CP based abilities, then something is wrong

[trantos01]

I agree that the stratagem system needs tweaking but making them all once-per-game or simply increasing cost is not the answer. The once-per-game issues have already been pointed out and increased costs will just mean that players chose traits/relics etc that deduct CP costs and/or let them regain the things.

To me, more abilities need to be baked into the units while what stratagems do should be reworked. Stratagems should be things that you use to try and turn a game around etc, not things you're popping off every turn or in multiple phases of the same turn.

The Necron's quantum shield buff is a prime example. I'm going to use it if anti-tank attacks are hitting my vehicles (because I want them to live). The only time I wouldn't use it is if the incoming AP isn't strong enough or I need to save CP for later.

Another way this could be handled would be to pay in points similar to Tau upgrades, Cryptek Arcana etc. So you can make  units much more powerful than they normally are, but at the same time you could have used those same points to buy more units.