Stupid list decisions.... grrrrr

[Jack Shrapnel]

After getting Franked with wood elves of all things last night, figured it was time to rethink the enormous point sink that the vermin lord is... although he is super cool and I really like him... being unable to join units and only have a 5+ save makes him an easy huge chunk of victory points....

I still want to use him... but in the interest of trying to still stay within my twin furnace theme (hey they were expensive hard to paint kits - I'm using them!) I'm trying to work on other options... and bashing my head against the wall....

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated....




Total Roster Cost: 2398

List One:

Lord Skrolk (to make the monks count as core)

Plague Priest (279 pts)
1 Plague Priest, Flail
1 Plague Furnace
1 Dispel Scroll

Plague Priest (254 pts)
1 Plague Priest, Flail
1 Plague Furnace

Warlock Engineer (45 pts)
1 Doomrocket,

Plague Monks (214 pts)
26 Plague Monks + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Bringer-of-the-Word

Plague Monks (264 pts)
26 Plague Monks + Musician Mus + Standard Bearer Std
1 Bringer-of-the-Word
1 Storm Banner

50 Skavenslaves, 127 pts (shields + musician)

5 Gutter Runners 90 pts (Sling + Poisoned Attacks)

5 Gutter Runners 90 pts (Sling + Poisoned Attacks)

Warp-Lightning

Warp-Lightning Cannon

Doomwheel

Hell Pit Abomination


------------------------------

List Two:

Total Roster Cost: 2399

Warlord (188 pts)
Shield
1 War-Litter
1 Weeping Blade
1 Warpstone Armor

Grey Seer (310 pts)
1 Dispel Scroll
1 Talisman of Preservation

Plague Priest (254 pts)
1 Plague Priest, Flail
1 Plague Furnace

Plague Priest (254 pts)
1 Plague Priest, Flail
1 Plague Furnace

Warlock Engineer (45 pts)
Doomrocket

20 Stormvermin (305 pts)
+ Shield + Musician + Standard Bearer
Fangleader, Poisoned Attacks
Storm Banner
Doom-Flayer Weapon Team

30 Clanrats (170 pts)
Spear + Shield + Musician + Standard Bearer + Clawleader

50 Skavenslaves (131 pts)
Shields + Musician + Pawleader

Plague Monks (176 pts)
23 Plague Monks+ Musician Mus + Standard Bearer

Plague Monks (176 pts)
23 Plague Monks+ Musician Mus + Standard Bearer

Warp-Lightning Cannon

Doomwheel

Doomwheel

So List one has a level three caster who's fairly survivable with the T5 and everyone having a -1 to hit him and being in a unit people don't want to fight that often. Also because the plague monks are core, this frees up a ton of points in a double furnace list for other things such as the lightning cannons, hellpit, gutters and doomwheel that otherwise aren't able to make the list without stripping everything else pretty bare bones. Only three infantry blocks is kind of worrisome, but two are unbreakable and one is L10 and unless flanked, likely stubborn.... okay it's slaves who really cares what happens to them? Now this keeps in the stupid hellpit that I haven't had do squat for three games in a row now. I've actually never seen this thing do anything but die.... but Scott keeps telling me it's great.

List two has a level four caster with a ward save who otherwise is pretty squishy... it has a more hardy general who actually gets an armor save and is with a fairly competent fighting unit (well for rats anyways!) it has a slightly more reliable 5 infantry blocks, however less big targets and no gutter runners for backfield disruption of war machines, which can be pretty huge for gunline armies. Less target saturation, but is a "safer" more reliable list... if skaven can have such a thing!

[Jack Shrapnel]

....oh and by "less target saturation" I'm aware list two has one more drop than list one... however I hardly count clanrats as a "I gotta kill that" unit...

[calitom]

In the interest of staying with the theme, Skrolk is awesome- toughness test or die? And even if they pass it they have to save against it anyways? Yes please! Amazing against those elves, hehe. Also toughness 5 over 4 is rather significant in a Rat army, so I've heard. The big advantage of taking a Grey Seer on my end is the ability to take spells from both schools, mix and match to your hearts' content- and trade away whatever spells you don't want for skitterleap and The Dreaded 13th- but seeing as how you'd take neither for your theme, the Grey Seer loses lots of points towards it over Skrolk imo.

Skrolk also frees up so many points you don't have to take in the required core- which is also huge. Those flanking gutter runners to make people sweat the deployment of their warmachines is nice, and the extra cannon is always handy. I'd say to give list 1 a try, but that's me.

[Jack Shrapnel]

Tom is awesome because he tells me what my plaguey heart wants to hear

[calitom]

The Horned Rat, he speak to me.

[stonecutter]

I've never been a huge fan of special characters and Skrolk comes in just a few points shy of the Vermin Lord. While T5 and -1 to hit is nice, Skrolk could easily be killed by even rank and file troops since he has no armour save. However, the rest of the list with Skrolk has some good heavy hitters with the DW, WLC x2 and Hellpit while the gutter runners are excellent at taking out enemy cannons/war machines that target your stuff (gotta love those poison slings!!). Skrolk's T test when hitting is nice but your opponent may just avoid Skrolks unit completely or just kill enough of the monks to render the unit immobile.

The second list has better magic defence and offence, which could be useful and the warlord is fairly decent in combat. To make him even more effective, I would suggest dropping the current magic weapon and giving him the dawnstone for a 2+ re-rollable save, which will greatly increase survivability and the ability to exploit the S4 autohit ability of the warpstone armour. If the grey seer takes the doom rocket, this will free up a massive 15 points, leaving you 20+ pts to get a blade of might for the warlord.

Overall, notwithstanding Skrolks cost, his list seems to have more flexibility and better combat power. Since there are already 2 x WLC and the gutter runners, you might even consider dropping the engineer to bring another block of slaves for a free drop or to give the plague priests protection. Alternatively, the 2nd priest could take the doomrocket and get poison attacks from the scavenge pile.

[Jack Shrapnel]

hmmm good point Frank... I could save....well I guess 15 points... just putting the doomrocket on one of the plague priests.... coincidentally the exact price warpstone spikes on the hellpit would cost....

Skrolk is only a consideration for me because the plague monks become core, and then I'm not forced to bring a bunch of clanrats just to hit the minimum core requirement.... the limitations of the dual furnace build (well one of them anyways) is that the monks just take a ton of your points, and hero points are maxed with the priests and furnaces... and without a decent caster you're pretty much at your opponent's mercy for magic defense....

I think where the bell definitely has the advantage over the furnace is that you're using alot of your core allowance in bell pushers, so you don't have to dip into the special slot just to bring a unit to push it (and let's face it, when the monks actually kill a couple models, I'm usually the first one that's surprised!)

But that's the restrictions I limited to myself with the theme.... regen or a ward save on such an expensive character would certainly have been nice though! but I guess you can't have everything....

I like the idea of the dawnstone combined with the warpstone armor... very devious Frank... you just might have some rat in you after all....

....which means you're now being monitored....

[Jack Shrapnel]

ah... knew there was the reason why I shelled out for those expensive warlock engineers....

...plague priests can't take the doom rocket....

[LizardTau]

I dont know much about skaven but list one seems interesting and id like to play it lol

[stonecutter]

Jul 2, 2011 7:48:09 GMT -5 Jack Shrapnel said:

ah... knew there was the reason why I shelled out for those expensive warlock engineers....

...plague priests can't take the doom rocket....

Well, that potentially frees up 45 points for list one. Enough to give someone a wardsave or bring another unit of slaves!!