Warriors or Vamps?

[calitom]

Have these beautiful Vamps here that I've been playing with for the past month and a half or so- though the lure of Chaos is still strong... Opinions for which I should take to the 2400 tourney?

2400 Vamps
Vamp lord (Blood Drinker, 2+ Armor, 3++ vs shooting, Eternal Hatred) on a Zombie Dragon

Vampire hero (Dispell scroll, master of the black arts)
Vampire hero (Helm of Comm. , master of the black arts)

24 Skeletons w/ musician
30 Ghouls w/ ghast
30 Ghouls w/ ghast
5 hounds
5 hounds
5 hounds
5 hounds

Varghulf
Varghulf
Black coach

I believe this is about it, have some spare points to either pack some more skellies in, or to throw weapon upgrades on the vamp heroes in case if they get into combat (skellie blade, for example) Deals a lot with the more fun things in the codex imo, it might not be as good as the big Blood Knight death star- but eh.


2400 Warriors of Chaos
Valkia

Lvl 2. Nurgle Chaos Sorc. (Dispell scroll)
Lvl 2. Tzeentch Chaos Sorc. (Talis. of Endurance, Bloodcurdling roar) on Disc
Lvl 2. Tzeentch Chaos Sorc. (Enchanted Shield, Golden eye of tzeentch, third eye of tzeentch) on Disc

40 Nurgle Marauders w/ flails, mus, and SB
18 Nurgle Chaos Warriors w/ halberds, FC, mus, SB (flaming banner)
18 Tzeentch Chaos Warriors w/ shields, FC, mus, SB (5++ shooting ward banner)

Hellcannon
Hellcannon

Valkia is debatably worse then a Lvl 4. Tzeentch Sorc on a disc, but has the ability to fly out of a unit to go hold up / rip apart a unit and/or threaten warmachines and archers. She also acts as a BSB, which is nice in and of itself. Double disc threats lets me split my threats to the backfield and makes sure I get gateway, which is the big reason to take em. Nurgle sorc is there to try to get fleshy abundance for the marauders and likely buboes for the second spell and lends a dispell scroll to the mix. Small model count and a low number of drops- but that's a problem warriors are going to struggle with save spamming hounds and chariots...

So here I have two very fun looking lists that I could play- not the most competitive, but I'm more into having fun with Fantasy then getting super competitive... Would have to proxy some of the Chaos stuff (the marauders as orcs, and the cannons) and it would make me the only WoC player, rather then one of three vamp players at the tourney. I'll also confess, seeing this model made me want to play a list with Valkia quite bad : wyrd-games.net/shop/product.php?productid=16617&cat=261&page=1
Could pick it up at the store tomorrow and get her sprayed at the very least.

Thoughts?

[pmlizardmen]

with having your vamp lord on the dragon making him a big target a good idea?

[Jack Shrapnel]

zombie dragon - cool fluffy choice + really really bad for tournies.... auto-lose against many opponents....

I want to love the guy... just not that effective

[stonecutter]

Since I expect there will be at least one of our other regular vamps at the tourney and Tommy is bringing his Greenskins, my personal preference is for the warriors to have a wider mix of armies. With that in mind, here are a few suggestions for the list based on having played against Valkia before:

1. I would drop the marks on the nurgle and one Tzeentch wizard so you can take shadow or death magic. It saves points and the spells are better IMHO.

2. For the flying Tzeentch wizard, give him the 5+ ward, charmed shield (ignore first hit, including cannon balls!!) and bloodcurdling roar.

3. One of the other two wizards MUST take the infernal puppet. Being able to adjust miscasts is better than a scroll as your opponent is very unlikely to risk tossing 6 dice at anything. Also, one of the misfires on the hellcannon is a miscast for every wizard on the board so there is a fair chance it will happen during a game. This gives you a great opportunity to really hurt the opposing wizards while greatly protecting your own.

4. The marauders are likely better with MoKhorne and great weapons. Tommy has used this before and the unit is quite amazing. MoN for marauders doesn't do much but the extra attack and immune to psych for khorne works wonders. Also, if the two non-marked wizards both take shadow, the default spell (range 48") can be used to help hex any opponent the marauders are fighting by reducing WS/BS/I/Move by d3.

5. Banner of rage (frenzy so +1 attack and immune to pysch) for the nurgle warriors works really well unless you are really worried about a hellpit but a couple shots with a hellcannon and a magic missile from the tzeentch wizard could kill it just as easily.

6. That should leave enough points left over for 3 units of 6 dogs to add deployments so your warriors can be placed where you really need them and they can also go after war machines, screen your troops, etc.

See you tomorrow.

Frank

[calitom]

Sadly, the only lores the Hero Sorc can take are fire and death, or the lore of their mark. I'd love to have a shadow sorc simply for miasma, but the only way I have access to the Lore of Shadow from heroes choice is to give either a hero sorc or an exalted hero the Book of secrets, which makes them a lvl 1 wizard and may choose lore of Shadow, Death or Fire. But essentially I'd be paying a 25 point tax to be able to take one spell from the lore of shadow, and would be forced to leave him as a lvl 1 caster...

In order to fit in the dogs, I could possibly change it to something like this :

Valkia

Lvl 1 Sorc (Book of secrets - Shadow, Dispel scroll)
Lvl 2 Tzeentch Sorc (Infernal puppet, Third eye of tzeentch)
Lvl 2 Tzeentch Sorc (Enchanted Shield, Golden eye of tzeentch, Bloodcurdling roar) on a disc

5 warhounds
5 warhounds
40 Khorne Marauders (flails) and mus.
18 Tzeentch warriors w/ shields and SB (5++ ward vs shooting banner)
18 Nurgle warriors w/ halberds and mus, SB (banner of rage)

Hellcannon
Hellcannon

With regards to the mark of Khorne vs Nurgle for the Marauders... not really sure which would wind up better in the end- Nurgle gives them some defense against shooting and usually makes them slightly more durable in combat, while Khorne makes them a big threat. I prefer flails over GW on the Marauders simply due to wanting to take advantage of that initiative 4, and usually relying on sheer force of attacks in the first round of combat to break most things with the flails. If not, then usually I wouldn't leave them unsupported for long- Khorne will hopefully work nicely with the flails, though.

Also, I wanted to keep the second Tzeentch sorc as I personally feel they have some of the stronger spells for hero selection in the bunch- and the on foot guy with third eye will be able to copy whatever spells enemy sorc's have as long as they don't heal wounds, which will be nice to be able to swap to those when something good comes along (looking at you, Lore of Life +toughness spell)

Short of dropping the lvl 1 Shadow Sorc, there's really no other way for me to squeeze more into the list without losing something important in return- 6x3 ranked units of Warriors and the Marauders are at numbers where I feel comfortable with them, the double hellcannon is also a must for me- Valkia is a choice I want to stick with, and I think she'll be okay as a lord choice, better at least in a list not based entirely around a big chosen death star which has disappointing me in the past.

[Jack Shrapnel]

looks pretty solid... some really hard to shift blocks... casters are more for support but you've got plenty of offensive power....

....two hellcannons eh?.... geez...... that's gonna hurt!

[calitom]

Yeah, just can't get away from the hellcannons- hehe. Hm, now I have one more dilemma and I think I'll be set for the list- I can either take that unit of Tzeentch warriors, or I could take a unit of 7 Tzeentch knights with the 5++ ward vs shooting banner (which would give them a 1+/4++ against shooting). It'd help speed up the list a bit more, but do I really need the extra speed?

[pmlizardmen]

from what i know is if your going to take knights it has to be a larger unit. i dont knoe if 7 would cut it. but thats just my opinion. also its almost time for the terny so i would stick with the warriors because i dont know if anyone eals will be on to help you.

[stonecutter]

The infantry block is way better than the knights since they will have more staying power (18 wounds vs 7). For the wizards, you can either keep the book of secrets with shadow or go with fire and a 2nd level. This would give you some flaming attacks to tackle anything that regenerates and some of the buffs (+1 to wound, enemy in contact takes 2d6 autohits) are really nice. On top of that, you add +2 to casting vice +1 and don't have to roll d6+1 for a miscast.

Between valkia, the dogs and the flying tzeentch sorcerer, I think you will have enough fast movers, so this is another factor in favour of infantry vice cavalry. See you soon (in less than 2 hours!!).

[stonecutter]

One last point I forgot to mention is a key rule for the hellcannons in combat or when they suffer a wound. They are monsters and handlers and so:

a. any wound inflicted after getting through the T6 and 4+ save is randomized with 5+ killing a handler. This includes cannon balls!!

b. it is unbreakable and so will never run.

c. it is larger than a monstrous beast and thus gets thunderstomp (i.e. d6 x S5 autohits vs infantry in combat in addition to its 5 x S5 and 3 x S3 attacks).

FYI

[calitom]

So after the tourney, learned some lessons.

1. Don't expect to do well after only 1 hour or so of sleep.

2. Lvl 1 shadow is kinda bleh.

3. Kill the araknarok spider next time instead of the 4+ ward caster.

So here's an updated list I wanna test out and see if I can try to figure out what works best with Valkia :

Valkia

Lvl 2 Death caster (infernal puppet)
Festus
Lvl 2 Tzeentch caster on disc (charmed shield, spell familiar, golden eye of tzeentch, roar)

40 Khorne marauders with Flails, mus and SB
16 Tzeentch warriors with shields, SB (5++ save vs shooting)
10 Khorne Marauder horsemen with spears

17 Tzeentch Chosen with extra hand weapon, champ (favour of the gods) and SB (frenzy banner)

Warshrine
Warshrine

So here I lose the hellcannons (which are awesome, but don't ever seem to accomplish much in the games I've used them in) and the Nurgle warriors for the Chosen, the two warshrines (t6 with 4+/4++ is awesome for a mini tarpit / flank support) and the fast cav. I'm not really sure what I could drop for two packs of dogs in the list to get those two annoying units to block charge lanes with and generally harass people- but I'm hoping this list will work better for a number of reasons. Festus will either go with the Marauders (yay 5+ regen and poisoned attacks) or with the chosen (Also yay for a possible 5 poisoned attacks from each model in the front...) hopefully proving to be more valuable then the 2nd tzeentch caster. Opted to try out the lvl 2 death caster as I believe he'll work good in conjunction with Festus always getting Curse of the Leper- so it makes all the spells that are reliant on STR and T easier to effect people with.

Fast cav will be good for back field hunting and flank charges, and trying to supercharge the chosen with the warshrines made a rather scary unit for me in the past. (Their big weakness was the STR 10 elf spearmen before, don't have to worry about that as much now) And I'm determined to make Valkia work, I'm sure it's just a manner of time before I click in the right targets for her and not mess up with going for things that will have saves next time.

Anyways, tell me what you think about the Chaos changes.

On the vamp front I'm going to try out a more cast-based support approach with Mannfred as my lord choice. Guess we'll see how that goes. Or I was going to try something sneaky with the zombie dragon lord list to counter it's inherent weakness against warmachines...

[Jack Shrapnel]

Looks like a good list, although it's sad to see the hellcannon go....

if Valkia was in a unit it would have been a completely different game against me... always start her protected when awesome warplightning super cannons of awesome are on the table! (and they don't blow up or be completely ineffective that is!)

the double warshrines are an excellent investment... annoying to get rid of and a great support element for the warriors....

[calitom]

Yeah, made some really bad decisions over the span of the day. Double warshrines is nice, and offers up the ability to even give the non chosen units a buff at some point if needed, say if stuck in a really hairy combat. I will miss the hellcannons as they're wonderful and I enjoy using them a lot, but being STR 5 leaves a lot to be desired and having them scatter off everywhere, not misfiring or failing their rampage roll and running headlong into combat tends to leave them not doing what they're taken for - being the only shooting in the codex.

The warshrines' lack of a thunderstomp saddens me, but oh well. At least they're other qualities make up for it.