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Post by Typhus on Jan 1, 2022 19:21:16 GMT -5
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Post by trantos01 on Jan 1, 2022 19:50:41 GMT -5
Huh, bit surprised at the 'nids doing so well but then I run into them vary rarely. So I don't have a good idea in regards to their full potential.
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Post by Khalai on Jan 1, 2022 20:32:22 GMT -5
Huh, bit surprised at the 'nids doing so well but then I run into them vary rarely. So I don't have a good idea in regards to their full potential. Just remember, when they say army, they mean this specific build of this specific army that you can only find in a specific White Dwarf. I love me some tier lists, just don't expect that's how the Codex as a whole is good (sadly). |
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Post by Typhus on Jan 1, 2022 21:38:28 GMT -5
Huh, bit surprised at the 'nids doing so well but then I run into them vary rarely. So I don't have a good idea in regards to their full potential. Just remember, when they say army, they mean this specific build of this specific army that you can only find in a specific White Dwarf. I love me some tier lists, just don't expect that's how the Codex as a whole is good (sadly). It's not the Crusher Stampede but the Leviathan supplement which skyrocketed the Tyranid winrate. |
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Jan 2, 2022 1:18:38 GMT -5
Codex Leviathan Hive Guard  |
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 2, 2022 7:38:47 GMT -5
No surprises to me at all either.
Codex Hive Guard is poised to crash land with the new mission reveals if static gunlines die to the new missions (aka if the new GT missions force you to do things like go-forward to get your CP or score primary)
Iron Hands and Ultramarines dread spam builds (and to a lesser extent Space Wolves and GK DreadKnights as well) will all crash-land as well if the Tau Railgun meme-train has anything to say about it.
The Custodes codex will mostly be a slight rebalance with a slight increase in firepower, while the GSC codex traditionally hits imperial/marine factions pretty hard, while Tau traditionally have strong matchups into Orks and Drukhari.
It's an accurate tier-list, but by end of this month it's about as relevant as those "Happy New Year 2022" decorations you can pick up at a clearance sale this week.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 2, 2022 8:24:16 GMT -5
Yeah as soon as chapter approved hits the tyranids being good for three months bubble crashes and burns again (changes to engage and ROD alone changes the current "good build"). Also rumours are that hive guard got hit with a big point nerf, which wouldn't surprise me. The 18 hive guard list was a skew list that was in response to the plane nerf, and really only piloted to success by Mani Cheema. It's got so many hard counters (death guard aren't really scared of d3 damage for example). Glad I only own 6 and no more  I mean this seems pretty accurate but like Ray says, it's just a snapshot. Although Drukhari have been consistently really good since their book dropped and remain top of the heap. (that book just full of options to tune up a list). Weird that since the balance update and necrons have been hitting the podium at GT's they still put them Tier 4... that doesn't seem very accurate to me. They've been doing as good or better competitively as the armies in Tier 3. EDIT - oh geez, the stats are just over the last 30 days... ummm okay |
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Jan 2, 2022 17:23:05 GMT -5
Codex Hive Guard is poised to crash land with the new mission reveals if static gunlines die to the new missions (aka if the new GT missions force you to do things like go-forward to get your CP or score primary) Iron Hands and Ultramarines dread spam builds (and to a lesser extent Space Wolves and GK DreadKnights as well) will all crash-land as well if the Tau Railgun meme-train has anything to say about it. Codex Hive Guard doesn't produce static gunlines. It's a sea of hyper-lethal obsec bodies backed up by arguably the best shooting unit in the game. The biggest issue on the horizon for that build is the GSC blip detachment, if anything hurts that build I expect it to be the new GSC book. I don't think mission changes without nerfs would be enough to ruin them, the supplement really is that good.
Also I'm gonna say it: if Tau are so oppressive as to obsolete dread builds across the board, it isn't just Space Marines who are going to be crashing and burning. Dreads are just very cost efficient tough vehicles with core, and have weathered a lot of BS being dumped into the game last year. The only way one potential xenos list is going to punt them out of the meta is if it's so cancerous as to uh... ruin the whole game at all levels  |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 2, 2022 20:21:16 GMT -5
well the mission changes that will change the most how tyranids play are the changes to ROD and engage on all fronts. Additionally Tyranids do well at throwing a ton of obsec bodies on objectives, so changing the primary to 12 points with another possible 3 for another mission specific will impact them as well, as there's frankly many secondaries that nids are just not good at. Also the changes to bring it down that were rumoured are going to punish the forgeworld bugs that the codex is kind of relying on right now. It's essentially that hive guard and forgeworld are the thing that carries the codex currently in any competitive sense, and you have to play leviathan as well.
It'd be like telling all space marines they MUST only take Iron Hands as a chapter. No new rules for any other chapter, just Iron hands.
But that's what it's going to be until the new codex, so we just have to live with it. It's a fun army with great models and I'm certainly still playing it.
And as a long time tyranid player I'm slightly against the notion that this is now "codex hive guard" because it isn't. Mani Cheema won a GT with hive guard spam. That isn't duplicated by others. That's the most telling part - other people aren't winning GT's with that list. He's actually a really good player.
However what I WILL say about tyranids is it's codex leviathan. Because you have to use the Octarius supplement to get any new rules and all the new decent stuff (ie: 9th edition rules) are in Octarius, not the base codex, which was poor when it was a new 8th edition codex unfortunately so has aged terribly.
What has also been propping up the "hive guard" builds is using blips from GSC allies in order to stave off alpha strike rush lists, which utterly destroy hive guard. All rumours I've seen have said the entire blip system has been either reworked or gone entirely. Guess we'll find out in a week.
On their own, Hive guard are not the best shooting unit in the game... HOWEVER... with the octarius supplement you can have a) BS 2+ rerollable hive guard, or b) 3+ BS rerollable hive guard that reroll damage. Also it can shoot twice for 2 CP.
So to make this happen here's what it costs you:
A: (2 CP and 426 points)
270 points for six hive guard
cheapest decent character for swarm leader is a neurothrope for another 95 points
3 naked warriors with their synaptic link for 61 points
2 CP for shoot twice
B: all of the above minus the warriors - but adding in a 180 points for a malceptor with synaptic link - 545 points
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So that is to have ONE unit doing it's job as a shooting unit. It's 12 shots (24 if you spend the cp for shoot twice), S8, -2 AP and D3 damage ignoring LOS and cover. It's highly inefficient and requires a lot of support resources (synapse + all that support) sure, but is it good? Yeah it's pretty damn good. It's the best shooting that nids have.
Now is it as good as the three redemptor dreadnoughts option B costs? Or the 3 relic volkite contemptors that Option A costs? I'm not so sure about that.... or you know, what mortarian brings to the table for the same points?
If you struggle with hive guard, get something fast to just charge the unit. They cannot shoot in combat and cannot fall back and shoot. They also cannot fight their way out of a wet paper bag. That not only shuts down the hive guard, but the support elements aren't doing much either, unless you invest MORE points in having combat units to dig them out, or something to screen them (but let's face it, if you cannot remove a gaunt screen your list has other issues lol)
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