Goats and Gitz

[dave]

Well I'm excited.

www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/22/sunday-preview-beasts-and-gitz-tear-the-mortal-realms-in-twain/

I was thinking I'd have to wait until late Feb/March for my book, but it seems like they are both going on pre-order next week. Definitely looking forward to some QoL updates and hopefully play a little faster.

And for anyone who has gotten bored playing against my samey lists, hopefully the new book encourages some shakeups to what I put on the table, ha.

They have a lot more work to do with regards to the Gitz. Fingers crossed the goblins will get some thematic abilities that allow them to feel like a horde of nobodies who become scary en masse.

[DarrenB]

Yeah I've got a Gitz army waiting for paint, so hopefully they make some meaningful changes. The keyword soup style of the book just doesn't work and outside of including Kragnos the army does little to no damage while dying in droves. I'm listening to the Gloomspite audiobook right now and there's so much lore there that could be easily baked into the army - fungal spores dealing damage/affecting certain characteristics, tunneling up everywhere on the board, actually doing death by a thousand cuts correctly, etc.

Based on the other 3.0 books I'm cautiously optimistic, though if the book is good and the army turns around I'll have to paint up like 150+ models. Hahaha.

[dave]

I've been pretty impressed with the writing this edition. Not everything is perfect, but I don't think there has been a total flop of a book yet. "Flop" here meaning way over or under powered.

Unlike some other games I could mention, they haven't been trying to wow everyone with vastly inflated numbers over the previous edition, causing a whiplash inducing yo-yo of nerfs and buffs.

So here's hoping they buff what they need to and nail that theme. Goblins look like they should be such a fun army to play, I'm really hoping to see them out there. Just glad it's not me painting them all haha.

[dave]

www.warhammer-community.com/2023/01/24/beasts-of-chaos-can-spring-an-ambush-with-their-entire-army/

Apparently BoC can literally null deploy now (not that I will, someone has to bleed on the stone). No longer is a subfaction required to come in round 2 or ambush anything other than brayherd.

Ambush distance has also been increased from 6" to 9" from the board edge. On top of that, anything ambushing gets +1 to charge which stacks with the +1 from musicians. Aiming for 7s rather than 9s is going to make a difference.

Ungor shooting is decidedly crap, but shooting from off board once per game into whatever is closest to an edge could be pretty helpful.

Currently goat musicians give them run and charge, while the banners provide +1 to run and pile in. Kinda hope to retain run and charge from somewhere if the musicians are changing.

[StepwisePilot]

Sounds like the beasts are getting some good stuff. Hopefully you enjoy the new rules once it's out.

[dave]

Looks like they are leaning into what I enjoy about playing them (sneaky goat missiles). The brayherd units are my first loves, so I'm hoping to find incentives to run them. And motivation to paint the 50+ models I still haven't gotten around to heh.

I'm still most curious about what is going to happen to summoning. I don't want it to feel oppresively powerful if the stuff I'm bringing back isn't total crap, but I really do like that mechanic. Throwing waves of sacrificial goats is fun. Knowing that I can always bring some back later means that I can enjoy watching my enemy mulch through them almost as much as they do.

[kurdz]

I've got to say, the games I've played against Beasts, munching on the small units never felt to enjoyable.

I liken it to my guys being fed the nutrient rich Beast feed that the rest of the army really enjoys. Like fattening my guys up for the bigger beasts to come reap the delicious spoils lol

The waves never stop! Ahhhhhh!

[dave]

I've got some good news for you my friend!
Summoning has been removed from the book and my 2k list is now 2845 points. Looks like we have successfully called all of the goats from the forest, and they are soon to be an endangered species.

On the plus side, games should end up being a lot faster and I don't have to carry that second army transport box anymore.

[kurdz]

I haven't watched AOS Coach's run-through of the battletomb yet. Started on the Gitz video, it seems like they've been cleaned up pretty well. Most of the keyword bingo is gone at least.

[Hi I'm Derek]

2845 points?! I hope your units got better then daaaamn - haven't seen points hikes like that since they did in Hedonites way back.

[dave]

I've got major Hedonite vibes at the moment. The warscrolls did mostly get better, although a few units feel more like sidegrades or just got a different roll.

All the goats, except tzaangors are slower. They gained +1 movement and the banner now gives +1 to charge. They lost +1 to run and run and charge. So I gain an inch and lost d6 inches. Worst case is now baseline.

The bestigor "glow up" has me feeling suspect. Gain +1 to hit (3+), +1 bravery (7) are now 2 wounds and have a 2" reach. New ability is -1 to be wounded vs unleash hell. That sounds great. No more sawtooth, more survivable

Lost rerolling 1's vs order, +1 to hit vs 10 model units, and significantly +1 attack on the charge. They can gain that +1 attack back if the opponent uses all out defense. Would you mind spending a CP to give me an extra attack please?

Went from 125pts to 220. In most situations they do less damage, but they stick around longer. I dunno if I want to pay 95 points for that.

A lot of the low rend stuff gained it, but the high rend stuff lost it. Bullgors had -2 on the great axe, - on the horns. Now it's -1 and -1. 6's to hit become mortals, lost 6's to wound add a mortal in addition. More consistent, but less spike and it's harder to get to "no save for you" territory on the 3 damage weapon. They went up 65 points to 195. Gained a point to bravery though /shrug.

That said there are a lot of new buffs, debuffs, shenanigans, and units with completely different identities. The warlord traits and artifacts are decent.

Waiting until turn 2 to get the -1 rend from the stone will be a downgrade, but not much usually happen turn 1 anyway. By the time turn 4 kicks in for the -2 though, the game will be decided. It is going to be shocking how much less starts on the board, and there's no summoning to pad it out. If I haven't tabled my opponent by then, I can't see having anything left alive.


It is a new army. I will attempt to learn how to play it from scratch. At the moment I'm mostly shocked by how much was lost and what those upgrades are going to cost me.

[kurdz]

Wow, it sounds like a huge change all around. Maybe not losing their identity, but certainly shifting it in a major way. Probably closer to what Skaven players were hoping for. But also in line with what Seraphon haters are also hoping for.

I've always thought of them as one of the endless hoard armies, it will be interesting to see how they are played now.

[dave]

They are definitely better at ambush and movement shenanigans.

Most units get +1 to charge with a banner, anything ambushing gets an additional +1. Can ambush within 9" of board edge, rather than 6". Everything can ambush, no restrictions. Can come in turn 1 OR 2. Worse than other armies, better than the last book /shrug. Warlord trait to ambush one unit within 7" of enemy (like stormcast). That adds up to a 5" charge roll required for the one unit you really need to get in there. Definitely some positives.

Ungors get a new skirmish ability. When selected in the fight phase they can retreat instead of fighting. Ungors with spears get a short range shooting attack. At 80 points they are the cheapest unit and likely to show up as screens.

Some access to -1 to wound, some fights last, an heroic action to make an enemy move closer to you, spell to prevent pile-ins. Shaggoth keeps his halve move/run/charge spell, but damn he's expensive now. 155 -> 275 is rough. He has a new 2d6 d1 shooting attack, and his melee profile got a bit better. But he can't give dragon ogors rr1's to hit or reroll all wounds anymore. I love my shaggy, but I think he's a shelf warmer.

They are leaning into the cagey plays with tricks to help the glass cannons survive a little longer. I think it will be rewarding, but maybe not the easiest thing to play well. I expect to get my ass handed to me a few times*.

Shooting is going to hurt even worse than it already did, and that was the army's biggest weakness. The only real defense was target saturation, and they can't afford that anymore. The units with shields got better here, as they increase the save characteristic, and don't just work in melee, but the units that need to get shot don't carry shields.


*So many times. Like, all of them.

[Hi I'm Derek]

The mechanics being more appropriate is a good thing, as is not having to bring a sea of models every game- but hoo boy. Those point increases are pretty extreme. Hopefully the new mechanics make up for all the stuff you have to cut.

[dave]

All things considered, I do like the look of the rules, even if the skill floor has been raised. But I am going to have to work on throwing out everything I know and pretending it's a whole new army.

I hope to find that the points are actually reasonable for what it has gained. However, points are easy to change. The warscrolls and army abilities are solid. If the worst case is they need a couple rounds of points drops to feel right, well, there are much worse problems to have.

The real difficulty is going to be making the decisions on who to cut when it comes to list building. I like cheap armies because I always want all of the options. Cutting out a third of the models I expected to put on the table is going to be tough, especially if they all have fun to stuff I want to try.