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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 19, 2023 18:25:59 GMT -5
Hey everyone,
While it's still fresh in people's minds I'd like to ask for some feedback mainly:
1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event
2. what could have been done better this year?
3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year?
4. Should we keep / expand the best table award?
5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful?
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Things straight off I'm looking at changing:
- Paint score method being totally reworked. I've tested self-scoring for a bit now. This method does not work as intended. (well the original intent was to keep me from getting blasted by people, which did work but the trade off isn't worth it)
- pairings based solely on Win/Loss only so my original idea of how to reduce to best general works.
- I think sports score could be simplified as well to a simple "my favourite person to play this weekend was_________" rather than rankings / day which is just so much extra data entry.
scoring needs to be streamlined to make things run more efficiently I feel. I'm working on it lol.
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Post by harryf on Feb 19, 2023 21:32:51 GMT -5
Typing this out on my phone on atrain, huge fan of the event overall, excellently ran as always. 1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event 5 rounds was a really nice change of pace, I found that I got really tired around the middle of Round 3, I can only imagine what I'd feel around Round 6 (if there was one) Draw prizes are nice as always (saying this not just because I got one), really pushes the WAAC tendencies out (although I don't think Kingston ever really had it) The 32 player 5 round mechanic for best general was very elegant (despite technical difficulties stopping the implementation) 2. what could have been done better this year? With 32 people in the back it gets really really hot, and with all the talking people will inevitably start getting louder and need water, and I think nexus started running out of bottled water near the end, any way we can get one of those big camping water cooler or something next year if someone has one? Use less plastic while we're at it 3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year? For the 5-0 method of deciding best general, if we really want to make sure it works we can also implement some sort of tiebreaker mechanic (no idea what this could be, have not played enough 9th, ties seems rare but can still happen, speaking from personal experience) 4. Should we keep / expand the best table award? Expand it, no question 5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful? Random Thoughts: - Sports and painting scoring, as far as I can tell, is not perfectible because they're just so subjective (at the highest level), so "good enough" is probably good enough, the "favorite opponent" method instead of ranking in order to reduce data input stress sounds pretty good. Painting is similar, its usually clear who the "tier one" painters are but how do you really make a objective scoring system that fairly judges the value of, say, scratch building a model vs display board vs greenstuff sculpting? If we really want to streamline it, We can just have some "judges" who pick the top X armies then do player voting, I feel like 9 times out of 10 that'll lead to the same result as what the rubric+voting system produces, while reducing data entry stress significantly. (Granted, I was never too interested in the painting/modeling side of the game, so I have very little stake on this) ------------------ |
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Post by matthewbri on Feb 19, 2023 22:38:55 GMT -5
No complaints. I guess the win-loss doesn't work well but as somebody who doesn't top table it doesn't really effect me lol
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Post by silverwhasp on Feb 20, 2023 11:46:06 GMT -5
I like the Win - Loss. At 32 undefeated players round 1, 16 undefeated round 2, 8 undefeated round 3, 4 undefeated round 4 we should be left with 2 undefeated round 5. If they are paired that way all week-end.
The reason this is cool is that sometimes points don`t tell the whole story. A really hard match-up can be really low scoring though highly competitive. Some factions just don`t score as much as others because of secondaries. Anyways Win-Loss for next year is good.
As for the winners. I would maybe do Best General, Best painted but no Best Overall? Reasoning is this, have the best painted players submit their lists of they want to and then hand in a rubrics and then player vote? Those that don`t want to be best painted can just ignore that part and concentrate on 3 paints? If we add a Best Table we still have 3 prizes plus the Sportsman award, which i agree should be "My best opponent was, instead of rankings".
Now for Best table, should it be best painted only? Best set-up? Maybe a rubrics. Example; Players score tables by painting scores 1 - 5, Balanced set-up 1-5, Theme 1-5. Then take the average. I think scoring just for painting isn`t the spritit of setting up a table, considering balance and gameplay should also be a key component to judge.
Just ideas. Awesome tournament again, love it and can`t wait for the next one!
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Post by raceygaming on Feb 20, 2023 12:11:03 GMT -5
1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event
- Best table /terrain donated tables was awesome, this year we had 6 and next year hoping for way more
- capped at 32 players, felt like we had space for everything, volume was solid, I think that is good for the space. Also keeps the tournament to 32 players with 1 undefeated ( in theory)
- seeing new players I haven't seen before, great to know the community is growing
- The plan to make best general just straight WIN/LOSS/DRAW ( computers **shakes fist**)
- Knowing the missions and their order ahead of time AND have at least one hold 2/3 mission in the pack. I really do love this for easy of set up and to try to limit higher skewed list making.
2. what could have been done better this year?
- Computer messing up match up kind of sucked, understandable a learning experience for next year, double check when you get to your table you are playing some one who is X-0/X-1 when you get there.
- Painting Scheme needs a pretty much ground up overhaul (has been pointed out)
- Setting up the tables the night before and making sure that each table had a minimum of obscuring terrain. While I think this has been the best year for overall terrain balance there were some tables that felt like they were built by theme not looking at function of terrain, which I think happens more when you setup morning of ( I understand that some of this is out of our control with a magic tournament last night) but in an ideal world for sure this.
3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year?
- 15 minute Setup/ deployment time built in - aka 15 mins to get secondary, run through army lists and start dropping stuff on the table, then 2:30 hrs to play, 1:15 per player roughly for a total round time of 245 mins. I know that means an extra 45 mins day 1 which makes it a little later but I find it does make the actual game play faster when you have that extra time to talk first.
- Day 1 Lunch, I know that on the 3 game day we need to have a shorter lunch and I think 45 mins worked well this year. Any community ideas on how to implement something like a pizza lunch, to make it easier? Pay in the morning and have a swack of pizza's show up at 11:30?
4. Should we keep / expand the best table award?
I loved it and really hope it does grow and expand. If it becomes more popular it might be cool to come up with some outlines for table set up from a community balance point of view. Kevin was gracious enough to let me fudge a piece of terrain an inch or two as there was an unexpected vehicle vs terrain interaction that I don't think was intended. Super excited to see what next years tables will look like.
5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful?
Both my Suggestions are more for playing mechanics / tournament mechanics then actual gaming but I have 2 suggestions:
- I know this is a very polarizing topic which is way I'm putting it in feedback suggestions for next year. I think an optional chess clock on your table that counts up (NOT COUNT DOWN TO TIME PEOPLE OUT) but something that has the time to help you visual the time reminding. I know I used a chess clock as a remind in 4/5 game, forgot in 1 game, and that was my only game that went over time. I personally really find useful. I know in at least 2 games I thought about doing something looked at my clock time and said its not worth firing 6 pistols when I know I'm going to charge it any way.
I know with a couple people I played it gives you a good sense of what a 15-20 minute turn is, which you need if you want 5 rounds, assuming the rounds will go a bit faster as more stuff dies.
- Maybe adding a standard finishing formula to the player pack to help in games that don't make it to time. Something like:
"If time is called and the game has not reached 5 turns for both players, you must freeze the round and talk out the next full consecutive round or the next half round, if at top of turn ( one player has had more activations).Ex If you end on bottom of 3, the players may talk out turn 4 for scoring purpose, end on bottom of 4 talk out turn 5, end on top of 4 talk out bottom of 4. If a mutual scoring agreement can not be reached a Judge/ T.O can can make a ruling that is not open for challenge.
Additionally, if a game does not reach the bottom of Turn 3 (each player has had 3 activations by the end of time 2.5 hours) the game will be entered at a 45-45 draw (half of a 90), as the standing score does not accurately reflection 5 rounds of game play."
I think that in general 2.5 hrs of play should always get you pretty dang close to a full game and that most players at Clubs know their list well enough to talk out at least one round without too much assumptions but this would create a firm ruling to avoid any issues. Also the idea of T.O /judge ruling on scoring a table that can't agree to a talked out score does not have to be the T.O there could be 2-3 more senior players that could help sort it out.
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Post by VaUkos on Feb 20, 2023 13:52:17 GMT -5
1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event
I still enjoy 5 games more spread over the two days, like harry said i prefer draw prize's over win prize's (minus the awards/trophy's ) the 32 people definitely brought in some new face's and game's/armys that i did like, not saying i don't like play against yall whos local like me. also i liked the entry stuff this year i.e Dice and bolter keychain (still curious who has the cursed set)
2. what could have been done better this year?
with 32 people no one can guess how much space it's going to take but maybe having an staging/gear area setup,
(i might edit and put more things here)
3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year?
as talked about briefly above, maybe getting and area for staging/gear for people to put their stuff i.e display board, carrying case other items, you can fit 3 people's worth a stuff on top and under one each table as long they follow 2 x 2 ft max display board roughly.
for the water idea that harry put up, i can help with that a bit i have a few water jerrys that hold 45L of water, as long you (shannon) and mike is okay with it because he dose make business on selling the bottles of water and i don't want to affect that if he's not okay with it.
has already been talked about too by you (Shannon) but maybe add more to the different area's i.e magnetizing, clean work, dynamic base's. and i do like the judge idea too where they pick why they think is best or deserves to be voted on and then the players vote on which they prefer
i do like Jordan's idea of taking on an extra 15 minutes for setup, talks and secondary's, something to build off of that too is when that rounds player's finish and go up and hand up the score sheet they get the next mission and score sheet for next round, take it back to the table and set it up for the next round to save time for the next people and they do the same after.
to help with the loss/win/draw ratio for best general, add an fill in next to/near the name of the opponent that is Result: (win/loss or draw) so incase if the computer mess's up with the numbers there is a easy way to see the L/W/D ratio
4. Should we keep / expand the best table award?
I enjoyed doing the best table, it gave me something different to paint and try instead of Tau and something to play and design with too, for the award i wont say keep or expand since I got and I don't want to come off as unthankful for it but I'm satisfied & fulfilled with the award and all the comment's i got from people about my table that made it worth the multiple 12+ hour and over night painting sessions to get it done, btw thank you to everyone that gave me review on it and those who commented it on it, hope to do it again next year.
5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful?
For those doing Best table or have display boards, could we maybe for the terrain for the best table competition bring it down to the nexus on Friday (but not set it up so the magic players have space) and same for display boards maybe depending on space so that day of (saturday) it's not as difficult coming down, getting in and setup with having to bring so much at once. as long you (shannon) and mike & staff are okay with it.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 20, 2023 14:30:20 GMT -5
a few points:
- No one came to me at all during the weekend and said "this table needs more terrain"... there was alot of terrain on the shelf still and more could be put on. I of course couldn't add terrain to a table set up for best table as that would pretty much defeat the whole purpose of that competition.
- There will always be a best overall. I wouldn't even consider getting rid of that. Best General and ALL PAIRINGS FOR EVERY ROUND will be based on a win/loss only. Best overall is the total score of Battle points, paint and sports.
- Best table needs to be painted to enter as a bare minimum. Everyone could vote on which table they thought was the best. Everyone gets one vote, majority takes it. People can use whatever criteria they want to make their choice, be it "this one is painted the coolest" or "this one was the best setup".
- I'd gladly add more time to rounds as soon as I see people playing efficiently and not finishing games. Haven't seen that yet. This weekend I saw people hitting 45 minute mark and not even starting their first turn. When I walked around first game (to try and set the tone) when people had an hour left and said "you're starting turn three right?" alot of people weren't. If you've been playing for an hour and a half and you're still on turn 1-2, that's not a problem of time. Just adding time (and by extension cost of the tournament as nexus then has to pay staff to stay an extra hour) isn't the solution for that.
- Pizza eaten at the tables with terrain on it? what could go wrong lol... we unfortunately had a later start this year which is why the 45 minutes day one... was supposed to be an hour, but best laid plans and all that.
- if people WANT to use a chess clock they're more than welcome to, however that's something that is not mandatory for participants to use. This isn't the ITC. If you want to put any kind of clock on the table to better keep track of time go for it.
- Talking out remaining turns is entirely optional and up to the participants at the table. Not everyone wants to do this, and it is not being forced upon people. Talking it out AFTER dice down is called can be a bit of a mixed bag, because people don't do it efficiently. There were at least two rounds this year where we're sitting around at the front not able to sort out pairings and the next round because people were standing at the table talking out more turns, rather than just talking it out when there was like 10 minutes left and they knew they weren't getting another turn in.
....okay.... painting.... big breath...
The reason this went to a self score originally was that the amount of vitrol I was getting for paint scores made me want to stop running this tournament altogether. About three years in a row in fact, I had to talk myself out of shelving this whole thing. I do this as a volunteer - there's no $ in it for me lol, (in fact clubs costs me money, and I really hope work never figures out how much printing I do for it too lol)
So I went to the self-scoring method to essentially just take the entire thing off my shoulders. I KNEW doing this that people would give themselves higher scores than I would. So I had to enter in a subjective opponent piece to balance it out or it wouldn't be accurate "oh what I surprise, I say I won best painted!". This was done by "ranking" to try and avoid chipmunking scores after a loss (which sadly, this community had a LOT of several years ago I hate to say). But then people want to set up their cool display boards/armies so everyone can see them! enter another level of scoring to then arrive at a best painted.
How unwieldy isn't it? You see, the last couple of clubs before this was during covid, so numbers were lower. This weekend really highlighted how cumbersome all this entering scores is. took a LOT of time.
Unfortunately it also highlighted something else. By trying to avoid the conflict / negativity I made the scoring both too cumbersome and too inaccurate. All you had to do was follow the rubric right? Well there's a big difference between OSL being used throughout the army as a tool and "this one dude has a glowing sword kinda so give me points". I've seen entirely NMM armies... they're super cool (even though they're kinda weird from certain angles in my opinion) but should that be worth the same points as "this one dude has a NMM sword kinda so give me points".
Am I the best painter in the club? oh hell no. Not even remotely close. Can I do every single technique for painting? again, hell no, can't even wrap my head around some of it to even attempt. But what I do a LOT of is look at nicely painted miniatures. Like I spend way too much time looking at cool miniatures to inspire me to paint, or like an idiot, start yet another army. So I can tell if a technique is done properly, and is present throughout the army. Did I miss stuff when I used to score every army at a 40 person club champs? ummm sure, I'm trying to score 20 armies during a single lunch break. It was pretty nuts. Even IF the armies were set up on time and all in a row, and no one was still playing into their lunch break that is three minutes PER army... was a nightmare!
So this is changing. Significantly.
there will be a small self scoring portion that you can do at home and works for the vast majority of armies attending. These points will be added to your total score along with sportsmanship for best overall scoring. IF your army meets certain criteria that will be set out in the player pack AND you'd like to be considered for best painted, I will score your army and rank it against the competition and that's how best painted will be determined.
I can try to be as objective as I possibly can, (I'm not a robot however) and I know for a fact there WILL be people again that will be dicks about it to me. However the current system isn't working as intended, so I have to go back to scoring armies... I just don't need to score EVERY army. This gives me much more time to spend on individual armies and can really take a closer look at things so I can be as fair as I can be.
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Post by kaelon on Feb 20, 2023 14:37:03 GMT -5
The tournament was great I had tons of fun, played great games enjoyed some banter, all in all it was fantastic. The only thing I would change is to bring it back to the old club champs where every table was a different custom mission. I guess I just really miss playing against a warhound while trying to defeat my opponent
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 20, 2023 14:38:14 GMT -5
The tournament was great I had tons of fun, played great games enjoyed some banter, all in all it was fantastic. The only thing I would change is to bring it back to the old club champs where every table was a different custom mission. I guess I just really miss playing against a warhound while trying to defeat my opponent Used to be my favourite part of this tournament but I guess we're in the minority lol That's okay though, Christopher and I have an idea in the works I think you'll like  |
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Post by mrmanstory on Feb 20, 2023 14:51:36 GMT -5
Could it be possible we give people the option to opt out of being judged by paint? I know painting requirement is a thing and I liked really trying to make my knights look good but even then I know I'm never going to be a best painted kinda guy and I'm usually also not a top table player so I think in interest of saving you time on judging I would be likely to just say "skip me". I'm not saying this to make people put less effort in but I know a few people just kinda paint enough to get their stuff ready for the table and maybe skipping over those people for paint if they so choose could help alleviate some of the stress on your side. Maybe I'm overthrowing this I loved the tournament as always and will continue to come to every one either way.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Feb 20, 2023 15:01:38 GMT -5
Could it be possible we give people the option to opt out of being judged by paint? I know painting requirement is a thing and I liked really trying to make my knights look good but even then I know I'm never going to be a best painted kinda guy and I'm usually also not a top table player so I think in interest of saving you time on judging I would be likely to just say "skip me". I'm not saying this to make people put less effort in but I know a few people just kinda paint enough to get their stuff ready for the table and maybe skipping over those people for paint if they so choose could help alleviate some of the stress on your side. Maybe I'm overthrowing this I loved the tournament as always and will continue to come to every one either way. Yes it will be OPTIONAL to compete for best painted. I do not want to go back to individually paint scoring 40 armies! Essentially it will be - self score (like 20 points or something) you score yourself with a more limited amount of options. there will be still an entry level you must hit to even play (fully painted) But if that's all you want to do, go for it. No problem. I would suspect there'll be 8-10 people who will want to compete for best painted, and they will have to meet certain criteria to do so (full display board etc.) I can easily score that over two days and this will only be for the best painted award - these extra points will NOT count for overall etc. it will be separate. Most people attending clubs aren't there for the best painted award (or any award really) this is only for those seeking the painting award. |
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Post by Typhus on Feb 21, 2023 1:35:25 GMT -5
Hey everyone, While it's still fresh in people's minds I'd like to ask for some feedback mainly: 1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event 2. what could have been done better this year? 3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year? 4. Should we keep / expand the best table award? 5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful? 1. I really liked the Best Table competition, and I thought that the prize was inspired. The chubby marine trophies were also great. 2. This is probably the opposite of what you're looking for in terms of reducing the amount of data to enter, but I think I would prefer if Sportsmanship and Painting were objective scores rather than subjective rankings. All five of my opponents were gracious, fun, and in good spirits throughout. Four of my five opponents over the tournament were up for Best Painted. I played against Matt Morton and Lukas on day two, and had to give one of them the same ranking that I would give to someone who was painted to a 3 colour minimum. I would prefer a system where I can acknowledge that both had amazing armies, and that everyone was a great sport. 3. Either a ban on codexes which have not had FAQs released yet (World Eaters, Imperial Guard) or else another dialogue about issues and ways to resolve them. Conceptually I don't like telling people they can't play their army, but GW has a bad habit of releasing codexes with numerous issues. We all know about the issue with the Imperial Guard combo at this point, and I think the change we went with was completely reasonable - a change proposed by Lukas, who himself was playing Imperial Guard, so kudos to him for that. I had no other issues, and faced Imperial Guard twice over the tournament. I didn't get a chance to play against World Eaters, but I also haven't heard about any issues with the codex that needed a resolution. As long as we're willing to proactively make changes to codexes which have not yet been FAQ'd, I don't mind letting anyone play whatever. 4. Yes, please. No notes. 5. We should revisit this thread after 10th edition drops. |
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Post by zhivas on Feb 21, 2023 8:18:27 GMT -5
1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event
- The people, being a very new player to WH40k (but not to tabletop games in general) I've never played with as many players that are so welcoming.
2. what could have been done better this year?
- The terrain. As much as it's not possible to match GW suggested terrain perfectly, I personally think we should implement more "L shaped" ruins and LOS blocking ruin walls as GW balances codex around having terrain similar to their layout. A number of the tables were very LoS blocking terrain light in the midfield or have strictly square / rectangle pieces of terrain making playing melee focused armies on these tables ... extremely difficult. To your point Shannon, it may not be the amount of terrain that is the issue but more the terrain itself, L shaped ruins and ruin walls allow you to stage units outside of LoS in the midfield where as a lot of the terrain currently at nexus are square / circle pieces that open up a lot more firing angles than is healthy in melee vs ranged matchups.
3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year?
- Not sure how realistic but maybe some ventilation in the playing area even if it's just a few fans. It gets... steamy after a couple of games haha.
4. Should we keep / expand the best table award?
- Absolutely, one suggestion is to have some criteria to stick to (i.e. loosely follow GW suggested terrain or another "tournament standard" terrain layout. While we're not a strictly competitive community here in Kingston, having a set of terrain that is in line with what GW recommends and balances their codices around just eliminates "feel bad" moments. (i.e. playing against a gunline army as a melee army with no LoS blocking terrain outside of the deployment zone)
5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful?
- For clubs specifically, probably pre FAQ / first balance patch codices and having discussions further out regarding those.
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Post by voodoo on Feb 21, 2023 9:54:34 GMT -5
1. what did you enjoy the most about this year's event?
- The armies all on parade, the hobby side of the game is what brings me back! Got to see some new faces, which is always cool; and finally meet some folks in person that I've only ever interacted with over the forums.
2. what could have been done better this year?
- I feel like the computer matchups pooping the bed have been harped on enough, and you've said that you're looking at a new way of paint scoring and Sportsmanship, so that's cool too!
3. do you have any suggestions for changes for next year?
- I'll echo what Kaelon said and vote for a return to some custom missions. While it made for a bit of homework ahead of time to at least see and know the oddball quirks to each one, it was a really great piece that I'd like to see some kind of return to if possible and/or if the community agrees.
4. Should we keep / expand the best table award?
- Yeah, I think it's a cool idea that had some support behind it. It'd be nice to see that slowly expand year over year until we can field a whole tournament of "sponsored tables". That'd be an awesome achievement.
5. Any other feedback you think would be helpful?
- Big thanks to Shannon for running, andto my opponents for some tough games. Someday I'll beat you Jordan! lol
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Post by Typhus on Feb 21, 2023 10:23:30 GMT -5
If I can add my two cents regarding custom missions: I think they can be fun, interesting, and definitely have their place - I just don't think the Club Championship is that place.
To echo what I said in other threads, I would love a dedicated tournament for fun and off-kilter missions, and/or to introduce elements of that to other tournaments. Great Crusade missions with a portion of Primary scoring contingent on doing cool stuff with your warlord springs to mind.
I do like having one "serious mode" tournament, though.
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