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Post by MagnusTheThicc on Jun 18, 2023 20:07:50 GMT -5
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Post by Hi I'm Derek on Jun 18, 2023 20:29:18 GMT -5
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Post by Casper on Jun 18, 2023 20:47:17 GMT -5
At least they are second in line for a new codex!
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Post by dapperswain on Jun 19, 2023 8:09:34 GMT -5
Sadly, the new codex will only fix one of AdMech's problems. The codex will have more options for detachments and hopefully one of those detachments will not be actively helping your opponent 40% of the time.
There's still the problems of terrible datasheets and terrible foundation. Skitarii troops shooting on 4+ isn't workable. Skitarii troops in groups of exactly ten isn't workable. Having abilities on six other datasheets fire off only when near Skitarii troops isn't workable.
There are some options that are OK, but I don't think there's enough to build an army around. As an AdMech player, I'm not planning on throwing good money after bad to rebuild my army around the few things that might work. Doubly so for whatever new figures come out with the new codex.
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Post by raceygaming on Jun 19, 2023 8:24:22 GMT -5
One of the nice things about the digital points and data sheets is that they can update them on the fly a lot faster. I think they are going to see when Sept rolls around and they have a 28% win rate , they are gonna have to react and in a pretty big way.
Admech does feel like they were one of the first writing teams and probably had the most vague " decrease lethality" which of course can be done in a million ways but the way they choice also have other feel bad parts to it.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 19, 2023 8:31:01 GMT -5
Given digital rules they can change stuff very quickly when necessary. I'd still give your army a few tests first, as this edition does play very differently, however if it's not right, at least they can quickly get it fixed.
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Post by dapperswain on Jun 19, 2023 16:07:10 GMT -5
Given digital rules they can change stuff very quickly when necessary. I'd still give your army a few tests first, as this edition does play very differently, however if it's not right, at least they can quickly get it fixed. I hope that GW takes a serious look at the index and revises it. I'm concerned that the revisions necessary would be stripping it down and rebuilding it from scratch. I don't think the will exists at GW to fix this index. I'm trying to not be hyperbolic when I say that this isn't an army that's playable. I've just tried putting together an AdMech 2000 point list - to see if I have something that could be entered into the upcoming 10th edition tournament. I had well over 2000 points worth of AdMech that could be painted under the last edition. I'm at about 1800 points now. I literally can not put 2000 points together without buying more models. It's something I don't understand - AdMech units were made less lethal across the board. But their points were also reduced - so you can field more of them? That's not less lethal - unless the datasheets are so bad that the units aren't worth fielding. I tried to not write a novel on this, but it really has me confounded. Sane people should probably stop reading here. The Ironstrider Ballistarii - the famous chicken walker - went from 85 points (with dual lascannon) to 50 points. It also lost a point of BS and its twin lascannons only fire once. That's basically... not worth fielding? If you take a unit of three, it's three shots at BS4 with S12 AP3 D6+1 damage. It has sustained hits 1, but AdMech reroll auras are gone so it's not something that you can rely on. I grabbed the closest Space Marine unit in points for comparison - a Gladiator Lancer. I picked marines because I'm assuming they're the best known. The main gun is one less shot, but BS3. S14 AP4 D6+3 damage. It fires at 24 inches further range with built-in Heavy tag for consistent BS increase. Then you can add in the three extra guns and three extra points of toughness. Also, the ability to reroll a hit, a wound, and a damage roll. Overall, the Lancer has nine fewer wounds, but the Ironstriders are going to lose those wounds faster at a not-so-tanky T7. (Going back and doing a fairness check, Ironstriders do have a 5+ invuln save as well.) On top of everything else, Ironstriders come in boxes of one at $75 a pop. For the price of three Ironstriders, I could buy TWO Gladiator Lancers. It feels like AdMech's index was revised for lowered lethality, then that wasn't extended to other factions? Then, when looking at the situation, GW dropped the points to the molten core of the earth to try and achieve inter-index balance. |
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Post by Typhus on Jun 19, 2023 16:16:24 GMT -5
It feels like AdMech's index was revised for lowered lethality, then that wasn't extended to other factions? Definitely feel that with Death Guard as well. I hope they do rebuild AdMech from the ground-up, it's odd to see their base stats reduced so much. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 19, 2023 16:16:40 GMT -5
That's generally what happened to alot of armies that got less powerful - they reduced the points so that you can just field more of them to make up for it.
Most lascannons only fire once now, so it's likely the Ballistari got the one shot as well (dark lances, and talos twin guns for drukhari too). I'm assuming it's heavy though so you get better BS by standing still? (I don't really know admech)
The gladiator is really, really good. If you compare most tanks to it, you're going to be disappointed. (see venom cannons for nids - makes me not really want to field them either)
Admech got the shaft for certain - I'm not disputing that. I'm hoping their impending codex and some adjustments in their quarterly point updates give them a playable option that still works. Their detachment ability is a real problem. Luckily, they've said codexes will add other detachment options - so at least that problem is going to be solved.
I think EVERYONE agrees that admech and death guard need some adjustments ASAP to bring them in line.
Votann and a few others are also in a not so great spot right now.
GW and overcorrection for the sins of the previous edition are kind of a theme.
I will add though, that at least locally, we run alot tamer lists than the GT crowd, so you should still be able to get good games in (especially if you throw in some allies to shore things up a bit). You might want to avoid Eldar & Tsons though.
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Post by voodoo on Jun 19, 2023 16:28:57 GMT -5
I know that the "dual lascannons" that Helbrutes mount got reduced to a single shot as well, so that one, tiny piece at least is in line with other indexes. Beyond that, I confess to knowing very little about AdMech, so I can't really offer anything to the balance conversation besides the common voices already heard elsewhere.
I do agree with Shannon though, in that GW is famous for beating an army to death for an edition or two after they've been the boogeyman.
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Post by dapperswain on Jun 19, 2023 21:02:10 GMT -5
FORGE WORLD CLOSED FOR HAPPY HOUR HALF PRICE OIL MARGARITAS IF YOU'VE CROSSED THE CRUX MECHANICUS SEE YOU NEXT EDITION (I'm working on my next army now, 20% chance it will be ready for July tournament.) |
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