Leviathan Tournament Feedback Thread

[lightcavalier]

The issue with the player placed objective mission is that you place the objectives before deployment side is determined

with 5 objectives (or even 6 and some skillful measuring) you wind up with a lop sided table where a dice roll for picking table side on an otherwise symetrical table is having a big impact on the outcome of the game

But at the same time, you are absolutely right...GW put it in the pack, so YOLO

[raceygaming]

1. How did you find having all the missions for the day laid out on a one pager, rather than a full page each mission?

this was great and made it easy if you were using the cards or tabletop battle app to help if you needed a clarifcation. I think even into a 5 game tournament 1 double sided listing would be amazing to have and maybe tape to the edge of the table. I will say I thought the player placed was gonna be imbalanced but it was very smooth. I can see why GW uses it in tournament play. I know it was avoided but just for future please no servo-skulls unit it gets fully reworked, its a bad design.

2. Was the table layout conducive to playing or was it too congested?

I will be bias here and say thanks to mike wanting people to get a chance to play as it helped me out. I was on the wait list at number #42 so literally no complants from me here. I got to roll dice and have a good day. In terms of physical space I thing the play area was fine, each of my tables felt like I had somewhere to put my dead pile and books without interfereing with others. I know that the body heat is something no one can control and about half way into game one I stopped noticing until lunch break and being outside, then again for the first 15 mins of game 2 and then stopped noticing.

3. Did it help having people bring tables worth of terrain to increase the density / variety?

I was happy to bring down stuff to fill 2 tables. I think we had 5-6 donated tables of stuff and it was amazing to see. I got to play on one of kevin's tables and it was awesome. Could hide a good chunk of my army and had tacitical places to move but still open enough that there were clear lines of engagement. Last game Iain and I ended up on a lighter table and just made a couple objects "obscuring" to try to give some places to hide and it worked well.
I think its was touched on but a theme board like "forest" or "canyon" can work if you have a special rule like " forest board - all forest are 5" tall obsucring" or "Canyon Arches are solid walls until a unit enters one" it helps with everything but towering so could play around with that.

4. How do you feel about Forgeworld / Legends going forward?

I think Forgeworld is soundly in the game. I don't think it is reasonable to devorce it from GW at this stage. Also until we start to see the codex release and the re-release of some of the FW data sheets the general sense is FW is weaker than index with minor exceptions. Legends on the otherhand is a new kettle of fish; I think as it stands legends might be a good litmus test for tournament style - more competitive like clubs and teams I would say no legends , fun casual like learn to play, Great cursade, and maybe secret santa, sure why not. Again Iain and I talked after our game - he brought the Falchion and honestly we agreed he was probably better to bring 2 smaller tanks and maybe a utility unit over 1 big 500 model in terms of competitive play.

5. Did you like the functionality of BCP (for those who had it) to make matchups easier? (and potentially submitting scores too if we get that figured out?)

Loved it! I know it was the first time using it and a couple sign in hiccups, but it does so many useful quality of life things. The biggest plus for me was last 15 minutes of lunch I checked had my table and could walk in an casually move my stuff on my table and got ready. Also I know we have paper sheets but its really easy to submit scores right from the table, if we wanna save some paper. Lastly with things like clubs you can submit your list there for approval and people can see list when the T.O says so you can really help speed up going over list at the start of a game. I really think that BCP is pretty solid and does match ups really well.

6. Is there anything we should do differently for our next tourney to make things better?

I really like this one. I feel like I had a chance to learn some things and go over some rules. There were some great questions that forced me to go back to the rule book to see if I can find an answer for. Some good ones:

Can a unit hold more than 1 objective - Yes you just count OC on a objective if you have the coherency to touch 2 then count the models on each for OC.

Orks play a ton of transports so - forced disembark is an AUTO battle shock, there is no roll. 1s do mortal wounds on disembark not MODELS KILLED so much better for mutli wounds like nobz/terminators. Emergency disembark is NOT a strat now its a choice, disembark 6" over model but mortals on 1-3 not just 1s.

Vehicles/monsters and combat shooting - you can shoot into a vehicle in combat at -1. vehicles in combat can shoot what they touch at -1, they can shoot out of combat at -1. You can not shoot a blast weapon on a target in engagement. You can not shoot non-Vehicle/monster in engagement UNLESS you are touching.

I know that people have brought up clocked play. I have used them in Toronto Tournaments and do really like them only as a reminder to keep my but in gear and assess if something is worth the time, (PS shooting 10 S4 pistols at a knight is NEVER worth the time unless it has 1 wound) I also know from playing a dozen games in 10th that the round speed feels long early but by turn 4 you might have a 10 minute turn. Went to turn 5 in 2 games and turn 3 in 1. in the turn 3 game I had 2 trukks, 2x 10 grots, unit of hogs and 2x1 cannon left and I think Iain had a falchion, the Lion and 5 scouts...our last 2 turns could have been 15 minuts at that point.
In this setting I think the clock would be a bad idea as it was a LEARN TO PLAY but I could see the issue be revisited for Clubs for sure and maybe for teams BUT I know from the past Teams has a way of having VERY FAST games. With some of the combos the game is over turn 2 no questions asked.

[ItsBird]

Jul 24, 2023 9:54:30 GMT -5 dapperswain said:

My turns were slow due to my inexperience and I'm genuinely sorry that I couldn't give you a satisfying game in this tournament.  

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. You are a new player at a specifically introductory tournament. It is not your job to play faster than your ability for the sake of your opponent's end of day score. 

[dapperswain]

Jul 24, 2023 11:51:09 GMT -5 ItsBird said:

Jul 24, 2023 9:54:30 GMT -5 dapperswain said:

My turns were slow due to my inexperience and I'm genuinely sorry that I couldn't give you a satisfying game in this tournament.  

You have absolutely nothing to apologize for. You are a new player at a specifically introductory tournament. It is not your job to play faster than your ability for the sake of your opponent's end of day score. 

 
I think that both sides of the table have the right to a satisfying game.  In my opinion, this is especially true in a tournament where people are spending money to enter.  (Not that the money itself is important, just that it represents a commitment.)  To many people, a game that ends halfway through round two is not going to be satisfying - regardless of points.

This may have been an introductory 10th edition tournament, but from my perspective this was basically a Warhammer introductory tournament.

I appreciate your comment and thank you for the support.


(The discussion on game time and clocks might best be in another thread?  I'm not trying to break the tournament feedback thread.)

[Jack Shrapnel]

I'm not using chess clocks in my tournaments for a multitude of reasons, including additional cost of course, but more importantly what it does to the player experience of a new player.

But thanks everyone for the great feedback... will use it going forward.

[Hippocampus Expert]

Not to argue too much but I think that having a "right" to things going x way, _in a social event like a game tournament_ or being owed it somehow is not exactly the sentiment I have. I think you are probably phrasing it different than I would. As a "want", or a courtesy, absolutely. Treat your opponent kindly and respect their time etc, but both parties must do so. That stuff should make it work nice. It removes part of the human element of the game to have restrictions and regulations on time imo. I don't think that is going to get results anyone wants, unless what you want is to cut off the slower player and that's it. At that point you can just verbally adjust what the plan is if time is running out.

I will say that some of the phrasing around the tourney made it sound more like a casual event than maybe it was? Or perhaps it was casual to the players who have more years at it 🤔. My opponents were delightful, very appreciative of meeting them and gaming with them would definitely love to hang out again and game. They were clearly on a level I'm not at yet, if you catch me haha. I am especially grateful to my round three opponent who was a great vibe and gave me the Insider Knowledge of army list building for tournaments

[Jack Shrapnel]

Yes this was an introduction to 10th tournament... many people were having their first or second game of 10th. There were many people there that this was their first Nexus tournament (and a few their first tourney ever!)

So the expectation was that this was a friendly tournament which was great for new players. At least that is what I set it up as. (I can't really control who shows up with what and there were a few rough lists present). We truly only have two tournaments a year that are "more competitive" which is the team championship (although I always bring a newer player on my team every year, and I think new players can have a lot of fun at it) and our Club Championships (which people tend to bring tougher lists to).

New players are necessary to have a gaming club be sustainable. I've heard many stories online about clubs that are "competitive" but can only have 8 players come out. I'd rather have the 80% of tournament attendees that are NOT gunning for the top three spots have a great time, because they're the ones that mean we can have tournaments at all!

[sean]

Jul 24, 2023 13:44:05 GMT -5 Jack Shrapnel said:

there were a few rough lists present

Sorry! I hope I at-least made up for it a little bit by being friendly.


I do think the two issues are sort of intertwined. Some of the scariest lists currently, are shooting heavy and trying to cripple your opponent on turn 1. Which leads to a quick game. I believe my turn 2 opponent had tabled his turn 1 opponent early and my turn 3 opponent had tabled his turn 2 opponent. Nice balanced lists actually take longer to play. If you actually playing a tight tactical game where both armies are equally matched and pushing till the final turn it is, in my opinion, very hard to get that done in 2.5 hours.   

This was the first tournament ever where I have not been stressed on time. I really enjoyed getting to visit with my opponent and chat about the hobby. But I don't like that it is because the game is unbalanced.


All of this to say that I don't think there is an easy solution without longer round times (bad for scheduling) or smaller points (not the standard). 
    

[Jack Shrapnel]

We cannot do longer round times at Nexus. 2 1/2 hours is the limit due to staffing, and people wanting a lunch break of course! (the only "free" time during the day we can take from)

if you attended an intro to 10th tourney and tabled all your opponents in two turns (not specifically saying you Sean, but a couple lists were doing this) then you missed the memo on how this was supposed to work... may I quote myself from the tourney post:

"This will be a laid back feet first into 10th edition 40k intro tournament. No experience with 10th is necessary because, well we all will be in the same boat, starting from scratch!"

[Casper]

Jul 24, 2023 12:24:05 GMT -5 Jack Shrapnel said:

I'm not using chess clocks in my tournaments for a multitude of reasons, including additional cost of course, but more importantly what it does to the player experience of a new player.

But thanks everyone for the great feedback... will use it going forward.

I really don't think chess clocks are the way to go. I do think maybe having more "time announcements" would be a good thing. Like at the top of every hour or so. None of the opponents I played were slow players - even my last game which was my longest lasted until the 20 min mark remaining. But, I think we only had the one 30 min announcement.

I dont want to make people speed through their turn. Especially if you have a ton of units/horde army but if your playing GSC - you need to practice speed. I'm used to competitive magic where if your playing against a control player who constantly goes to time or someone who is always taking their time when not doing anything (and I mean consistently not just an odd time in the tank)... you're going to have a judge called for Slow Play. I'm new so I don't know the ins and outs of warhammer time limits and what's acceptable or not.

I also strongly want to make clear that I don't want anyone to feel bad or discouraged from being a bit slower - especially if your new like I am. Speed comes with practice! The tournament was meant to be new player friendly.

[mrmanstory]

I don’t think the time is as big of an issue as it’s seeming on here. 2 and a half hours is enough time to play a game of 40K at a reasonable pace. I think people are forgetting a lot of the players were new and shouldn’t expect them to play super fast. At that point I’d consider it on the people who’ve played a lot more 40K to help out and speed up. I know my round 3 opponent was like “could you just remind me the stats for my armigers when I say I’m going to roll for them to save time” which was a good idea. Maybe I’m in the minority here since I was playing knights so obviously my turns were like 15 minutes but I was done with plenty time and was able to give my opponents more time to play out their turns.

[Jack Shrapnel]

Whenever I'm playing a newer player, I talk out everything I'm doing but try to make all my turns 15 minutes max, no matter what army I'm playing, as a newer player is going to be slower so would need more time. I also do what Andrew does and try to help them as much as possible. Makes for a better experience, and the game goes to more turns so everyone gets a better score. win-win!

[raceygaming]

If it helps at clubs last year Lukas and I were playing ork vs guard in 9th and used the chess clock to help pace the game. Our longest turn was T1 at 21 Mins for guard. Followed by T1 orks at 15 mins ( I lost a lot T1) everything else was less then 12 mins.

If your interested in trying some practise games on clock let me know and I'm happy to bring it down.

[drew]

1. How did you find having all the missions for the day laid out on a one pager, rather than a full page each mission?

I really like how easy it is to have a single page with the missions for each round on it. Its quick and easy to refer to each round and it saves paper. Only time I could see possibly needing extra pages would be a 5 round event, and even that could probably be done with 1 double sided sheet

2. Was the table layout conducive to playing or was it too congested?

It was packed, tables were layed out as well they could be for so many people, and terrain for the most part was good, but there was definitely a lot of people and it got loud quick. Also maneuvering around tables could be difficult when everyone was heading to their tables.

3. Did it help having people bring tables worth of terrain to increase the density / variety?

This has been my only tournament at Nexus so far, but I think it helps having people bring tables worth of terrain to increase density.

4. How do you feel about Forgeworld / Legends going forward?

Im firmly pro forgeworld, it's a part of Games Workshops brand, and its clearly stated and intended to be playable in a game. I think of it has "official" rules (anything GW has stated as tournament legal) it should be fair game to bring, as it will receive at least some balance updates throughout the edition. Legends units can be something that's either not allowed or allowed on a tournament by tournament basis. All my personal opinions of course and I'd respect the TOs discretion

5. Did you like the functionality of BCP (for those who had it) to make matchups easier? (and potentially submitting scores too if we get that figured out?)

I've been using BCP for a few events I've been at now and it's super convenient. I've been able to see pairings while out grabbing lunch and know exactly where to go set up at when I'm back. I know service can be a bit rough in the back area, but I think having it to see pairings and submit scores (probably alongside a physical pairing sheet so people who might not have data or are having connection issues can check). It would also be good for list submissions as well in the future

6. Is there anything we should do differently for our next tourney to make things better?

Honestly, between this being my first tournament here and it being a bit of a wildcard with so much interest and how many players we had for a beginners tournament, I don't know if I have any real criticism or suggestions, outside of potentially an extra announcement for how much time is left in the round. Otherwise I think it was pretty well run and went fairly smoothly for the conditions

[drew]

Jul 24, 2023 18:00:36 GMT -5 raceygaming said:

If it helps at clubs last year Lukas and I were playing ork vs guard in 9th and used the chess clock to help pace the game. Our longest turn was T1 at 21 Mins for guard. Followed by T1 orks at 15 mins ( I lost a lot T1) everything else was less then 12 mins.

If your interested in trying some practise games on clock let me know and I'm happy to bring it down.

Not to hijack a conversation, but I'd be down for some practice playing with a chess clock at some point in the future. I noticed I wasnt doing super great this weekend for timing and I want to work to improve that so Im more confident playing at events and tournaments