The M42 Project

[Jack Shrapnel]

Well technically this could be put under "other", but it's truly relevent to those who play 40k...

A few people have gotten together with the express purpose of writing a game system that's basically 40k but balanced, fun, and uses many of the same concepts people are familiar with (so use the same models)

They're changing names and such to protect themselves from the GW lawyers... but they're pretty clearly trying to rewrite 40k...

take a look and judge for yourselves....

them42project.blogspot.com/

[LizardTau]

they have some great ideas. Is it still a work in progress cause i dont see were you can buy or download the rules. I really like some of the ideas for the nids

[fritzthedwarf]

This is very interesting. Their overall philosophy is exactly how GW should operate. Yes GW needs to make money but should try to keep customers happy and make a decent game rather than screw over customers on a regular basis. If GW ever went under I would expect some of the community to do this - build a new ruleset so they can still play but with a good ruleset that will be updated when problems are identified.

Now, with GW still in existence, I wonder what would happen if they actually made a good set of core rules and for all the armies; then put the rules on the internet for all to use. Would clubs start playing with the M42 rules? Would GW codex sales start to drop? etc,etc. They are obviously a long way from that but GW's business practices have for me created a feeling of "the writing is on the wall" for their long term continuance. Part of me would like to see GW go out of business and either be bought up by a company that is willing to make a good game (the game has such potential) or the internet community creating new books that would be accepted and used for tournaments (such as INAT FAQ/errata). The second option of course means that models will run out or have to be addressed in another way down the road so not ideal. Good luck to M42 project.

The nid dex is a great example of everything that is wrong with GW. Poorly written dex with inadequate playtesting/editing - even the format of 5th edition books is crap - its as though it was the first time they put a book together (unit entries are not organized in any way which would be simple to do). Then lack of model support for so many models, some key models. The FAQ/errata was far to long in coming and though it did clarify some points which was fine, added unnecessary and weird nerfs, while not fixing so many of the other rules/unit points that were messed up. A company magazine (White Dwarf) that has become useless but could be useful with tactics, army designer comments/philosophy, FAQ/errata updates, etc. I do hope GW gets its head out of the sand and realizes that their long term viability is in question (in my opinion) when it does not have to be for so many of these issues.

Sorry - rant over.

[Jack Shrapnel]

....yet at the same time the 8th edition fantasy army books have been just fantastic!

oh well, maybe 6th edition will have a proper balance... I had my doubts about 8th for fantasy, but they've really done a good job once the army books started to be released...

[fritzthedwarf]

I'm glad to hear that fantasy is heading in the right direction with the new books. I have the new ogre book (and the last one) since I like the army. Perhaps I will have to take another look at it and dust off my dwarfs.

I also hope 6th edition brings a new company attitude to try to keep some balance and to update/errata/FAQ properly. I really hope that when the new core rules hit the street that each army gets a detailed FAQ/errata to not only bring the dex in line with 6th but to correct things that are messed up (useless rules/overcosted units/undercosted units).

[danydaigle24]

Well you see I dont agree with you I love 40k and yes there is some codex a little stronger then other but its really hard to get a perfect balance and it also depend on how people are playing around... For example in Quebec city Nids are the best armylist and everyone was laughing at me when I told them they suck... My cousin is coming for the tournament with NIds and Im sure he will do good. Shannon is doing good too with Nids...GW never force you to buy multiple army or new stuff we do it so thats why Ill never complain about price or anything we are the crazy people that put 10 000$ in miniatures (well Im talking for me) I love that game and will never accept to play homemade rules from people that are just pist off because they can find a way to win games

[Jack Shrapnel]

... as counter to that... the guys on this site are also some fairly winning players in the US tournament circuit...

[danydaigle24]

lol good and now we will start the war again like fantassy has for a couple month were everyone want to change to rule and finally agree that it was good 6th is coming anyways its a little bit late for them trying to change rules 6 months prior

[Jack Shrapnel]

well to be fair, 8th didn't really start working til they released some army books... 8 months later.... and the amount of FAQ's that were needed (I think they're up to THREE for each army plus the main rulebook) to make things make sense was a little ridiculous)

luckily with 40k they have a MUCH better track record of releasing a new codex straight away to begin the process....

oh, and I'm not suggesting we adopt these rules... I thought the process that they're doing was very interesting, looking at a balanced ruleset from the ground up... who knows if it'll continue any further than that....

[fritzthedwarf]

Danny. I'm not asking for a perfect balance. A serious attempt at trying would be nice. I'm glad you like 40k. I find that odd that in Quebec nids are considered the top of the heap. That might be a function of the player skill level. A skilled player with an older/weaker dex can defeat a less skilled player with a tougher dex/build. That does not mean the older dex is necessarily fine in the current metagame just because a player won with it.

I don't believe that if equally skilled players each playing competitive lists - one playing Space Wolves; one playing Grey Knights; one playing BA; one playing Imperial Guard; one playing Dark Eldar; and one playing nids - that we would find the nid player at the top (check the big tournament results and debates on various forums). That is not saying that you cannot win games with nids - of course you can. That is not saying that there aren't strong units in the nid dex - the hive guard are strong and not expensive points wise. That does not make the nid dex good, internally balanced or balanced with the other 5th edition dexes. There are too many poorly written rules or bad design philosophy or overcosted monstrous creatures, etc.

The day the nid dex came out many of the problems were apparent and the issues became more of a problem as each new dex was released. Many problems were obvious on the first reading of the dex. It was clear the pheromone trail and trygon tunnel would not be useful. No frag grenade equivalent for pretty much all the close combat units so that their high initiative is usually negated when charging into combat since most people will be in cover if they know this weakness. T4 mid-sized bugs very vulnerable to instant death from the prevalence of str8+ weapons which continues to grow - but the cost alot. The list goes on. The dex was badly designed and play-tested.

[LizardTau]

there is always hope for 6th ed nids.

and if this system ever gets finished and comes out, who says we have to change our 40k rules, it can be anouther game we play, 6th edition might be the edition of balance for all the codexs. or maybe the tau cheese edition lol

[Jack Shrapnel]

actually further to Mark's points - it's pretty much widely accepted that GW screwed up with the Nid book... even it's most fervent supporters across the blogosphere were silenced when Grey Knights hit (and their arguments were tenuous at best after Dark Eldar - but they still tried!) Nids unfortunately are relegated to only a couple of builds being viable.. and then it's dependent upon matchups...

Dany we were talking about your friends' nids doing so well in his metagame and you mentioned he was saying SITW was 24" instead of 12" (which would greatly increase their power versus psykers!) and that he was using the "power units" (ie: Doom - who even with the FAQ is still very good). The standard "netlist" for nids can win quite a bit - against certain builds of course... problem is the hard counters such as grey knights, dark eldar, mech guard, mech eldar (who don't let you catch them!), long fang heavy space wolves, blood angels... and anything that is 100% meched up...

but that speaks to poor CODEX design... NOT poor edition design! Let's look at all the books EXCEPT for nids that were released in 5th - they all have competitive builds, multiple choices, some have FOC swapping to even more expand builds.... GW did a good job with the armies released in 5th other than nids (Grey Knights power builds are pretty screwy, but a balanced list is still quite beatable).

the problem I share with you Mark, is all this money invested in Nids... who were my first 40k army and always have been my favourite... love the idea of them, how different they are from everything else, the look of the models, the fluff... pretty much everything about them EXCEPT how GW has treated them... But I still play them because they're my favourite, no matter what other armies I build (and I build ALOT of armies!)

but as I said, poor codex design... 5th was actually a pretty damn good system... they have some flaws, and I really hope they change that (ie: your XX point rhino runs into my XXX point greater daemon and I death or glory... your rhino instantly kills my greater daemon... wait WTF?) but overall I like 5th...

the interesting process is how these guys on this site are trying to balance and create a system from the ground up, basically duplicating 40K... and so far it ain't easy.....

[danydaigle24]

Yes I agree with you that right now Nids has pretty much one build that works and its lots of montrous creature but have you seen rumour that no more instant death on monstruous creature with force weapon that will help you a lot... lets see what 6th bring anyways I can already tell you that everyone will be complaining because it wont be the same and they will have to change they list...Maybe its because thats my favorite part of the game spending all my time on building list that Im always happy with that game...

[fritzthedwarf]

I agree with you both. First, Shannon, that 5th was not to bad (nids is the dex not 5th edition) and it would be great if GW just fixed what was a problem. Most 5th edition books are fairly close with exception of nids and I think vanilla space marines is showing its age, and prob orks (or were orks late 4th edition?). Its just GW has the internet and its website and white dwarf to do updates every 6 months or so bring older dexes into line so most of the book is useable - that is what disappoints me. I hope 6th changes this attitude of GWs.

And Danny I agree that list building can be fun. The problem I have with nid list building is that for me it is frustrating (even though nids are my favourite army) because so many aspects of the book do not work well (lack of synergy between many units). I also agree that there will be likely be complaining when 6th comes out but also praise for things that are done well. If GW puts effort in trying to keep the dexes balanced and workable than that should satisfy most people. For example when the nid book came out I was upset with GW. Since the FAQ/errata took 6 months to finally come out I would be so annoyed if GW had been honest about the problems and tried to correct them. It is acknowledging and taking responsibility for an error and trying to fix what you can - much of which GW could have corrected.