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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 17, 2010 23:54:03 GMT -5
Well, here's both my takes on High Elves thus far...I really can't get the idea of how big units should be. I also don't trust magic other than Teclis, so he's my only attempt at it....either him or none. I understand he's somewhat distasteful against certain armies and wouldn't try to play him without permission in a friendly game.
Teclis 2250
Lord
Teclis
Hero
Korhil
BSB, Armour of Caledor (2+ save), Guardian Phoenix (5++ save), Great Weapon
Core:
40 Lothern Sea Guard, Banner of Arcane Protection (MR2)
Special
20 Swordsmasters, Lion Standard (Immune fear/terror), Talisman of Loec on champ
30 Phoenix Guard, Warbanner, Skeinsliver (+1 to first turn roll)
2243
No Magic 2250
Lord:
Prince, 2+ save armour from book, vambraces of defense (4+ ward, re-roll armour saves), Great Weapon
Heroes:
Caradryan
Korhil
BSB, Armour of Caledor (2+ save), Guardian Phoenix (5++ save), Great Weapon
Core:
40 Lothern Sea Guard, Banner of Arcane Protection (MR2)
Special:
21 Swordsmasters, Flaming Attack banner, MR 1 item from book
32 Phoenix Guard, Warbanner, Skeinsliver
Obviously very small lists, I should be getting +2 to the first turn roll to either get Teclis blasting early, or else get my elite infantry forward while taking as little shooting as possible. Teclis will likely take Shadow in 75% of situations, using Pit of Shades or the Pendulum and then using Occam's Mindrazor and the Hex spells once combat is joined. He will also toy with flinging himself out of combat and replacing himself with Korhil after successfuly casting a Shadow spell.
No magic list is pretty simple....get in the face of the foe and tear them to shreds....MR is there to save me from magic, as it's my only defense. Seaguard would consider going to Horde and shooting for the first turn or 2 if I'm facing a very dense enemy army.
I'm honestly not sure if I'm happy with either of these builds, but I just don't feel like it's worth taking smaller units as they'll get chewed apart too easily. Spears/Seaguard especially start losing an attack with every model killed once they hit 20, and that just isn't nice...the Mindrazor squad can get away with it a bit, but the naked squad is still only S3 no matter how many re-rollable attacks they have, and as Shannon's Ogres proved, T4 is often defense enough against them, after which they die in droves.
What do people think? Should I be taking more smaller units? Different character set ups? Can I trust magic without Teclis?
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 18, 2010 10:11:21 GMT -5
....with magic being as brutal as it is... Teclis just seems.... well unfair to be honest.... give you an example... your high elves vs. my dwarfs.... Teclis does an irresistible pit of shades each turn... with no miscasts and no way for it to be stopped... the low initiative dwarfs pick up half a unit each turn at best... at worst (why not use the big one after all - large blast template if it doesn't scatter will hit an entire unit easily) I pick up a unit a turn, including characters.... same thing for my I2 ogres....ditto tomb kings, lizardmen, orcs/goblins, vampire counts... with that one lore and taking Teclis, you can immediately not only know that spell, but cast it with six dice every turn with impunity... and if you're facing high initiative army, Teclis is the only guy who can swap his lore out... with magic being so utterly powerful this edition, there has to be a downside and a risk. You shouldn't be able to trust magic... if it's reliable, then it takes things over the top with no downside... the threat of a miscast is what keeps armies from blasting out a purple sun every turn on six dice because you worry that your mage (and everyone in his vicinity) could evaporate! That risky chance to pull it out and maybe cook the mage's brain is a super risky move, and I think that it was designed that way to try and bring some balance in... Teclis really changes that balance.... and makes an a phase of the game unstoppable, with absolutely no counters for most armies... (I can think of dark elves perhaps bringing maelkith perhaps as a counter) my thoughts are that is why Teclis is so hated.... the changes to the lores just intensified it... now if feedback scroll works on irresistible force..... well then there might be a downside to bringing him and flinging six dice.... it's not a great chance of snuffing him out, but if you roll well it certainly could be.... (course you'd still have to eat that pit of shades/puple sun/ etc first!) ---------------------- okay, aside from my rant about Teclis! about the list itself... I think the big unit of sea guard is pretty cool... the MR2 is going to be very handy... and it is alot of attacks that (although depend on rolling  ) can certainly put a hurting down in some circumstances... plus they shoot... and shooting's aewsome! (my ogres got lucky in that combat for sure... but have to remember that was about 700 points in that unit that hit them!) The big units of phoenix guard I think are your best anvil unit... they're very hard to shift, and with the ability to reform now so easily, even a flank charge is not likely to stop them! ward saves = awesome.... your character brings the kills, the guard the reliability... very winning combo... It's the swordsmasters that are a conundrum for me actually... they're awesome once they hit combat, but you really need something to protect them until they get there... ironcurse icon may be a cheap ward for the unit vs. warmachines (against some armies anyway) but their bane is the massed shooting.... So maybe the key here is the various toughness buffs that are available... Lore of life can give them earth blood / thone of vines combo for the regen... and flesh to stone would be a lifesaver I think... (T5 swordsmasters are suddenly not very easy to shoot down are they?  how about T7 swordsmasters with throne of vines in play? ) combine this with regrowth when they do take some wounds... suddenly those swordsmasters are being subject to an invocation of nehek... yes please!!!! the lore of beasts signature spell is pretty awesome too.. but if you can get the whole lore (Teclis?) then lore of life could be a game winner for sure.... |
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 18, 2010 10:33:13 GMT -5
Yeah...I was thinking about Lore of Life....lots of nice buffs plus Dwellers if you want to go big. +2 T is probably good enough...I know that Throne makes it a LOT easier to get them off, but I'm unsure about reliably having it going.
A lot of people are suggesting big units of White Lions as an alternative, and I know S6 is great, especially with the likely ASF re-roll, but I worry that 1 attack a model isn't enough to deal with enemies that will outnumber me 3-1. Plus stubborn 8 is wonderful, but I have an inherent distrust for my LD dice anyways.
What do people think about the No Magic list. I'm really leaning towards not wanting to ever play Teclis more and more each day, (unless someone wants to fight him for some reason), and just.....don't trust the odds for magic with any other caster. Given I have 3 units it only takes one miscast to wipe out 30% of my points with the right roll. I don't like that option at all.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 18, 2010 11:14:39 GMT -5
with the nomagic list how would you stop hexes / buffs? MR only works against damage from spells... or worse... those characteristic test spells? mind you, with bigger numbers (and decent characteristics anyways) you could probably weather a few more spells than normal.... but certain armies (slaan anyone?) could really hurt.... not really sure... this edition has really confused me in a alot of ways... guess we all just need a lot of trial and error... I'm thinking myself of taking one army, a few lists, and just plug away at a bunch of games until I get a workable list going that is somewhat reliable/effective.... will take a long time (as I kind of own way too many armies!) but I think I really need to start from scratch and re-learn this game in alot of ways... it's not 7th ed anymore... and it seems really clear to me that the lists I used to use in 7th are not very effective in 8th! so take my input with a grain of salt - as I'm not sure any of us really has a clear idea yet.... okay maybe Frank does |
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 18, 2010 17:22:10 GMT -5
Hmm...see this is my problem. I don't want to be left with no defense against Hexes and buffs. I could quickly find my army sitting at S and T 1, or even worse play against Tommy's Nurgle Chaos and just watch Curse of the Leper eliminate 500 pt units at a time without my being able to stop it.
I guess it will just be a case of playing games as you said, because I'm just too unsure how certain things will perform. I really can't bring myself to trust casters other than Teclis, who seems too distasteful to use, but I'm not spending 175 points for a +2 to dispel while sitting there too afraid to cast anything. The magic balance seems a bit skewed....It's so dangerous to your own health to take, but if you don't take any it can just wipe out your army.
In regards to Teclis however, I just want to add a few thoughts. I don't don't want to actually start a fight because I do realize he is quite hated, but all I can think is "yes I can likely remove most of a unit in a turn with him" but at the same time I have 0 defense against a lot of the Dark Elf lists I'm seeing with 80 crossbows and a hydra or two on the board, or empire with 3 mortars and a ton of hangunners and a stank. All of those forces have the ability to remove at least as much of my army in a turn with about as little I can do about it as they could Teclis, and if they misfire (which the Dark Elves can't even do), they lose at most an 80 point warmachine, where as a miscast from a regular High Elf mage can cost me a caster of between 140 and 370 points PLUS a good chunk of a 500 point unit, given that I can't get away with leaving a mage in the open....
Again, it's all just intended as an open thought process, as I'm really not sure what to make of this edition. I love the way combat and ranked infantry work, but the magic/shooting balancing point is really hurting my brain.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 18, 2010 18:09:04 GMT -5
you definitely make a good point about the ability of other armies to deal an insane amount of damage in other phases of the game.... A regular mage could always take the earthen rod to have a reroll on the miscast chart if you're looking for extra protecion.... oh, and if you're seeing 80 DE crossbows and a couple hydras... feel free to take Teclis along... that person wouldn't have too much right to complain....  |
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 18, 2010 19:00:38 GMT -5
Yeah, I might have gone a little overkill on that concept, hope we don't see that army around here, but I've seen a few posted that are close....3x20 RxBs and 2x10 Dark Riders.....
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Post by redshirt2375 on Jul 18, 2010 20:06:46 GMT -5
Well there goes my potential DE list  I was going to stick with my 7th ed list and see how it went, but the more Matt and I talk about it, the more over the top it seems to be in this edition. |
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 18, 2010 20:16:12 GMT -5
Yeah...with Thunderstomp added to those Hydras, 2 is just overkill in all but the most competitive environments I think. And Dark Elf core (particularly the Crossbowmen) are better than most of their elites for the points.
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Post by redshirt2375 on Jul 18, 2010 20:54:44 GMT -5
Well I can always go back to Bolt Thrower Spam  (still remember the one list I had that I had 8 of them in) |
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Post by LizardTau on Jul 18, 2010 21:15:07 GMT -5
being immune to miscast is nice ensurance but its not going to make you get irrisistable force every round. Like i was throwing 7 dice (cause free one with slann) at a spell ever round and i only miss got double 6's like once in three games in the new day tourny. Were i found out i forgot to put my cupped hands of the old ones on my slann lol. changing lores, now that would be nice to be able to do
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 18, 2010 21:16:13 GMT -5
I'll much more happily deal with 2 T7 wounds with no save than 10 T3 ones with a 4+ save.
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Post by redshirt2375 on Jul 19, 2010 5:30:54 GMT -5
Teclis can since he gets Irresistible Force on the roll of any double (at least I'm pretty sure that's part of his rules) and with 6 dice a turn your chances of doubles is really high. Plus, now if you IF the spell goes off even if you didn't roll the target number.
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Post by stonecutter on Jul 19, 2010 15:04:43 GMT -5
I think high elves are very manageable with low/mid magic but you definitely need to bring at least a 2nd level caster just to get the +3 to all your dispel attempts (+2 for level and +1 for being a HE). Taking 2 x 2nd levels with different lores, stealing opponent's PD to turn into a DD and perhaps a scroll would give you loads of defense even against hexes and a very nice offensive phase with two different lores.
As for troops, I think blocks of spears with characters supported by smaller units of swordmasters to hit the flanks of enemy units would work well, especially combined with the default spells from lore of shadow and beasts to hex the enemy and boost your spears. Fielding 3 units of ~8 swordmasters likely means that 1-2 units will make it across the board and get into combat - better than you can expect on a single unit that can have magic and missile fire concentrated on it.
To deal with missile troops, I am beginning to think that a couple units of disposable fast cav (i.e. just as disposable/fragile as the rest of a T3 army!!) are a good answer. Vanguard advance 12" to threaten war machines and then, if you go first, move them into a threatening position with their 18" move. If the enemy goes first, they will have to move/focus on the fast cav while the rest of your army advances. If even one fast cav survives the fire, they can charge and tie up a war machine and two can kill most war machines.
Ideally, a unit of dragon princes with the ellyrion banner (auto pass any difficult terrain checks) would be a nice flanking hammer unit - lots of S5 attacks with re-rolls and, if the hexes/augments go off, then they are even better. Since HE are so expensive and fragile, I am not convinced a horde is feasible. Better to go with a couple units of 20-25 than one massive horde of 40. Mind you, with Teclis, the horde will work as the unit is well protected against magic, has enough troops to survive missile fire and will be S8 with re-rolls during combat. All this is theory hammer though so you may want to try out a few combos and see what works for you.
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) can certainly put a hurting down in some circumstances... plus they shoot... and shooting's aewsome! (my ogres got lucky in that combat for sure... but have to remember that was about 700 points in that unit that hit them!)
how about T7 swordsmasters with throne of vines in play?
I was going to stick with my 7th ed list and see how it went, but the more Matt and I talk about it, the more over the top it seems to be in this edition.
(still remember the one list I had that I had 8 of them in)
