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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 18, 2012 21:12:31 GMT -5
I have a feeling you'll want Nightshields back, but I completely agree with the rest of the changes. Wracks are definitely one of the stronger ways to hold objectives, and wyches are still pretty solid.
I think your missing out a bit by not taking incubi, since they are perhaps the only unit that gets AP2 at high initiative, and that could really help your list imo. You have the scoring power to go to 5 scoring units, but I don't know how much more expensive incubi and a aether sail raider would be.
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Post by redshirt2375 on Dec 18, 2012 21:25:15 GMT -5
The thing with Incubi is they don't get Assault grenades so you need to take an Archon with Phantasm Grenade Launcher, otherwise they don't last long assaulting into cover (T3 with a 3+ isn't that great). So to add a 5-man unit with Archon (who you have to deck out or he's kind of a waste) and a Raider I'd be looking at ~325 points or more.
To add that I'd have to drop at least 2 full units to make up the extra points. Plus I've found in pretty much any game I run Incubi, their Raider is "priority 1" and rarely makes it across the table, especially if I don't get turn 1 and once on foot they don't get very far.
I know I can reserve them, but then I run the risk of them not coming in until late game.
Well I think I'll try without the NS's at least once to see how it goes, but I don't think they actually came into play, other than once when Matt tried to fire a meltagun at a Raider, over the 3 tournament games.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 18, 2012 22:08:50 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, two of your games at the tournament were an uphill battle to say the least...
I think the conflict lies in that gunboat raiders want to get close for 12" rapid fire, where nightshields have less effect. Unlike venoms who are happy to sit at 36" and pound you with shots.
Perhaps Disintegrators on the Raiders would be better than lances? I mean it obviously lowers the number of lances in the list, but it really would help you put the hurt on MEQs and the like. might solve your AP2 problem without having to swap for incubi? Then again, those rangers are mighty nasty for killing infantry, I'm just concerned about their mobility. Rangers are pretty static and really don't want to move. LOS blocking things like vehicle chassis could render them fairly ineffective.
I suppose if you find the single lance shots on the raiders are depressing you could always swap out.
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Post by redshirt2375 on Dec 19, 2012 6:38:21 GMT -5
Well, to be fair, two of your games at the tournament were an uphill battle to say the least... Very true I think the conflict lies in that gunboat raiders want to get close for 12" rapid fire, where nightshields have less effect. Unlike venoms who are happy to sit at 36" and pound you with shots. Also very true and why Venom-spam seems to be the only competitive build for DE that I've read about so far. My issue is that I don't have any Venoms (nor the ability to purchase any in the foreseeable future) and Tom already has that list and I'd prefer to play something different (I know I've been saying that forever, but I'm sticking to it) I've considered swapping out to Disintegrators, but then I have to worry that I don't have enough anti-tank to deal with a Mech-list similar to your SWAG list (which I already had a difficult time with) All the stuff I encountered that had 2+ SVs pretty much were all backed up with a 3+ Invul (other than Tom's Oblits but they were in 4+ cover anyways) So even with my AP2 shooting, most things still had saves. If I'd had Incubi sure I could have taken things on in CC. This means their Raider has to survive a turn of close range shooting (since I need to be a lot closer with the new Disembark rules), pray I don't get pinned when the Raider inevitably explodes, hope my opponent doesn't have decent rolls on any Overwatch they might have, and then hope that I can actually kill what I'm attacking (again, most things with a 2+ SV I faced had a 3+ Invul for backup and was T5 which means I only wound on 5+) I understand why they are good, but at the same time Incubi are a huge point cost and no where near survivable. They excel at taking on things that don't have a 2+ SV because the things that get that kind of save are things you don't want them fighting in the first place (ie: Termies or TWC) Now this doesn't mean I won't try them out at some point, especially since I've started some work on painting some because I long ago special ordered a unit of the "Trenchcoat" ones from the old Vect model. I just don't see how I can fit them in the list that I'm currently working on. They will likely see some table-time when I get back to running pure DE. I'm still considering seeing if I can make a CC army work (wyches & incubi)
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Dec 19, 2012 7:18:53 GMT -5
Well, one thing I've noticed playing such a meched up list myself, is that people realize they can't possibly kill all of your vehicles. I've yet to have a game where I've lost all of them. Depending on what the opponent deems important to remove is what usually dies.
Honestly, using hordes of plasma and AP2 myself, against TH/SS with 3++ invuls, yeah AP2 kinda feels like "why did I pay that price?", but if your reducing them from a 2+ to a 4++/4+, I find AP2 is totally worth it, and it will pay off with volume of fire. Throwing a half dozen AP2 hits on something WILL cause damage. And Str 5 from Disintegrators means most infantry will be wounded on 3s. It might not be the Str 7 of imperial plasma weapons, but it's solid enough against anything but vehicles.
One last thing to note about vehicles, is that since they no longer contest unless explicitly made scoring via mission or warlord trait, you can often ignore several of your opponents vehicles, and concentrate on your opponents vehicles that actually are a threat to you. One big thing to remember in 6th edition, is you have to disembark to score. If you stay inside your rhino all game, that unit won't be able to affect the battlefield as much, and which it will likely survive longer because of that, it will apply far less of it's firepower to the battlefield. Knowing that people will have to get out at some point, means dropping your can openers for anti-infantry is a possibility that shouldn't be overlooked so easily.
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Post by redshirt2375 on Dec 19, 2012 9:16:31 GMT -5
That's a very valid point and one I was thinking when considering the switch to Dissies. I've even been tempted to run 3 Dissies on my Ravagers, but then I'd have to look at getting my Anti-tank elsewhere.
My problem with a list like your's is that if I can't crack the Rhinos then a lot of my shooting ends up being wasted, which is why I may end up running more Wyches since they may do more overall than the warriors.
The thing I found with my list is that killing stuff wasn't the problem (other than the super-tough units like Matt's Bike Command Squad) but rather actually holding/contesting objectives. DE just don't have the resilience to hold an objective for more than 1 turn and it's a lot harder now to pull off the last turn objective grabs under the Disembark rules. I was thinking that the more scoring I can add would be better than adding in more killy units.
I'm still in the learning stages so I'm going to have to try out everything to see what works and what doesn't. Maybe I'll get lucky and win the lottery so I can see about picking up a Flock of Venoms ;D
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