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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 24, 2013 17:46:24 GMT -5
(shrugs) sorry AK....
next time I'll use my necrons... too soon?
lol....
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Post by nsc on Jan 24, 2013 19:47:22 GMT -5
Next tourney SHOULD be smurfs (which auto-corrects to duders :-D) but will probably be shannon's super creepy blood angels (excluding the championship where he is an imperial arbite)
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Post by calitom on Jan 24, 2013 21:46:39 GMT -5
There is no finesse to playing guard. It's having enough money and using the correct tools at their disposal.
Cruddace is a terrible codex writer for breaking the two primary rules of codex writing. 1 ) Terrible internal balance. There are certain things you obviously take in certain slots because they're cheaper, better and the reason to use those slots. 2 ) Terrible external balance. A properly built guard list with Cruddace's codex is the one thing in the game that really gives me fits. Sure we're all used to random blobs and such, but leafblower guard? Do any of you seriously still think you can handle it with ease in the current 6th edition metagame we've all gotten used to? I'm quite certain my lists would be blown off the table in a turn or two with proper target priority.
Guard are the best allies because they're the most versatile codex available. They have the best choices in every slot for less points then everyone else. More scoring bodies, more heavy weapons, more hull points then you can shake a stick at. Anyone telling you different is two things. Wrong and stupid.
Edit : And yes, I'm sure people will bring up "But weren't you complaining about Plague marines and Grey hunters being the best troop bar none?" Yes, they are for the points allocated- that doesn't mean that these single selections can hold a candle to the guard codex in being disgustingly underpriced.
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Post by Hizack on Jan 24, 2013 22:07:52 GMT -5
I mean, I'm still amazed at the price of Vendetta's... 130 points is just obscene.
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Post by nsc on Jan 24, 2013 22:41:22 GMT -5
And yes, I'm sure people will bring up "But weren't you complaining about Plague marines and Grey hunters being the best troop bar none?" Yes, they are for the points allocated- that doesn't mean that these single selections can hold a candle to the guard codex in being disgustingly underpriced. Guard force with SW allies, take SW HQ + 2x GH troops :V
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 24, 2013 22:44:34 GMT -5
and that's what I was trying to say Tom... with enough cash (which is the only reason you don't see more!) you can seriously buy a completely insane army that will wipe just about anything off the table... as guard only... there's really little need for allies with guard... they can just do better than everyone else if you pick right...
I'm shocked not more people play this army... but I guess it comes down to cost to do it right... but there's also alot of terrible choices in the codex...
It's Cruddace.... that's his thing....
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 24, 2013 23:08:37 GMT -5
Guard have severe problems with scoring in midfield and even more importantly, denying objectives to their opponents... Vehicles don't deny, Blob's aren't fast enough to cross the table against anyone smart enough to use speedbumping or who has a hammer unit (like termies)
And those "cheap" blobs? Yeah, they are cheap. Unless you want them to be able to actually do anything except fire lasguns. A blob worth taking that can actually impact a game and survive will not come in at less than 250 points. And those tooled up superblobs? A couple Flamers will literally cut them to pieces. Not to mention precision shots, challenges, and barrage weapons nuking your commissar so you aren't stubborn any more.
Don't take what I said about Guard being weak as "guard iz teh badz". They have weaknesses, just like everyone else. Guard can practically table you and still lose to you on objectives. They are seriously that terrible at scoring in midfield.
Playing Guard is a lot harder than "take Vendettas, Blobs and Russes and laugh while you worship cruddace". I actually think that Pure Guard are very overrated in 6th because they have a big key weakness in scoring.
Disagree with me at your peril, but Guard are NOT TOP TIER as a primary army, they are with other solid but not over the top armies of this edition. The Top Tier codices atm are Necrons, CSM and Tyranids. (and I'd like to note that DA haven't been ranked on my list yet, since they are too new atm)
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 25, 2013 1:54:23 GMT -5
I find it hilarious to see Nids as top tier. Not that I disagree, but given where the same book sat in 5th....I'm afraid for what Cruddace will do to Tau.
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Post by LizardTau on Jan 25, 2013 5:37:20 GMT -5
I'm afraid for what Cruddace will do to Tau. yes this worry keep me up at night lol. id rather keep what i had then get a bad dex lol
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 25, 2013 6:44:55 GMT -5
so guard have troubles with scoring and nids are top tier competitive?
oh I see what's happening! where's the cameras? good one guys... you almost had me going there!
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 25, 2013 7:26:09 GMT -5
well there is only one thing I agree with Ray, Nids are not a joke anymore, I feel like they are kinda guard if you make the right selection they are in top tier.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 25, 2013 7:45:07 GMT -5
nids were never a joke army.... they just had.... issues... in 5th with mech... now mech isn't auto-lose for them and the pendulum has swung so people aren't taking much mech... expect to see the pendulum swing back soon... very soon... not to mech dominance of 5th... but back to a healthy amount... helldrake FAQ step one... the drakes will lolstomp foot lists for a while and then people will go..."hey, if i only had a metal box to hide in I wouldn't have lost my whole squad right there?"... "wow if I was only in a transport those billion bolter shots from those banner equipped DA wouldn't have killed a thing!"... the "meta" is constantly shifting depending on what people bring... what weathers that? a codex with alot of good choices no matter what the opponent brings... guard. gunline was never a good idea... still isn't a good idea... if you play guard like that (hide and shoot lasguns) it's not the army's fault if you lose... you're not playing it as it was designed... just like you shouldn't have your fire warriors try to be a close combat unit... you have to use the tools properly... with a proper guard list you can take on any army in the game and have a decent to good chance of winning the game. You have good scoring (multiple cheap bodies equals good scoring... smaller fast scoring bodies = good scoring..... that's how the game is designed), good armor, good long range shooting, good flyers... so you can bring an "all comers" army quite well... other codecii (nids are a good example of this) are restricted to HAVE to bring a certain unit or two in order to be anywhere close to competitive <<cough tervigon cough>>.... you do not HAVE to bring vendettas to have competitive guard. I rarely ever see Tommy's guard army lose... ever... in fact he won the last years club championships with his guard... no vendettas... one russ only (I think... that might have been a later addition) and choices such as penal legion which someone using theory hammer would instantly say "bad, don't take".... and yes, that was under 5th edition rules... but he brought it out again after not playing for six months and it gave consistent performance again... and his list is weird, strange and not optimized for 6th (yet... give him a minute to get that sorted) and doesn't include any flyers... to go back to the original post... talk to Tommy about how he sees / runs guard... he's one of the people here who consistently have run guard as primary, both locally and at big tournies outside of Kingston... and he has done consistently very well... he can give you some really good advice... although he might tell you to take something super weird... but that's how he rolls
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 25, 2013 8:10:38 GMT -5
Shannon, Tommys guard is not has good has it was. Still a nice army but not as good as it was. Give that army to an average player and he will struggle to win. Tommy is a good player.
When we played he had a hard time dealing with 1 Helldrake, had pretty much nothing that can kill it. Took half his army to ground my LofC and Straken with the new furious charge rules is not as cool as before.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 25, 2013 9:34:47 GMT -5
@dany - Tommy hasn't been practicing 6th, upgraded /changed his list (or even bought one guard model since sixth came out) and was playing against your tournament list... and the first time facing a helldrake... and he still held his own I recall? yes he's a good player, but that is hardly even close to evidence that guard is weak... only that he needs to update his list for 6th if he expects it to be as rough as it was... but only really because of the helldrake... if you didn't have that how would it have went? or your LOC surviving for multiple combat rounds with one wound due to whiffle-straken? anyhow, that's not the point... my point is Tommy plays unconventional guard well... if Stephen can get his advice (sadly he's not on here much at all) it would be helpful to him...
let's use AK's example above... he switched his list to guard primary and instantly his win rate in the tournament shot up... did the player change? nope... he started using a more competitive codex and did better...
Regardless if someone has their mind set that guard are not a powerful codex, then I'm wasting my breath trying to convince them, but I think there are numerous examples to show here that this is not the case... my point to Stephen's original question is that the guard codex can be used to make a powerful army... and has the tools it needs to compete... it has had consistent longevity throughout fifth and into 6th...
so how do you take advantage of this to turn your luck around? I think it is based upon list design and tactics... let's start with list design... if you post what you're currently using, and how you use it, perhaps we can make recommendation to assist you...
such as:
Toops: I take one unit of 10 guardsmen with no upgrades and run them up the board in the open at a midfield objective to try and claim it.
that way we would be able to say "wow, don't do that!" and give you a different idea to either keep the troop and use it (combine squads to a blob and what hidden upgrades to take to maximize effectiveness... or upgrade to vets and let them me melta suiciders or riding vendettas for late game objective grabs)
I'll make one recommendation right now... you NEED an anti-air presence with guard... the helldrake is just too devastating against them unless you go all meched up... I would certainly recommend from my limited dealings with guard that all meched up is the more powerful choice to play the army, but some people like foot lists (ie: Tommy) and the look that gives them for their army and the playstyle it provides... thankfully guard has some of the best anti-air in the game. Hydras are very cheap for what they do, and are instantly going to give you dividends against your biggest threats from chaos and necrons. Vendettas will increase your ability to threaten flyers and decimate ground armor as well. You seriously cannot go wrong adding at least one to your arsenal... (I'd recommend two minimum)... if you do not bring anti-air you will have problems...
medusas with bastion breachers... add a couple... you will not regret it.
make a decision if you want a fortification or not. If you do, a bastion is made for your army. The aegis is not. Yes the kit is cheaper but it's not suited as well to guard... it can totally rock for marines and tau.... guard need to spend a few more points IF they want a fortification to work for them... sit behind an aegis and you spent points for cover and worse anti-air than you could have brought already... helldrake flies over, fries your dudes behind the aegis with no saves = anti-air gone...
static gunline of guardsmen on foot does not work well... it's like poor man's tau except you have guardsmen instead of fire warriors... which is not going to be very effective!
so long story short, post your list for help and we'll do our best... try to include how you have been using the units as well because often that can make a huge difference!
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 25, 2013 10:00:50 GMT -5
Shannon, I never said guard is weak. I told you I agree with everything you said guard is amazing. I always dream to have a guard army with FW Death Korps model but I dont have 2k to put on 1 army... Im just saying his list that he has right now need to adjust because its still 5th edition. Im sure Tommy will do it and he will be in the top player again at the tournament...
I love the way he plays his guard its my favorite way but Straken took a big hit with new furious charge rules...
As per my tournament list, its a good list I personally think but according to the internet Im far from being a good list. Im not using PM, Bikers, double helldrake, max flamers, screamers. Im using LofC, Mutilator wtih MOK and DA with MOK not even Tzentch or Nurgle.... I dont spam anything at all expect 2 Chaos Space marine squad because its my troops so honestly post my list to any forum other then here and they are laughing at me (like your necron list)
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