Stephen
Immortal
Clearly winning. . . even with 17,000,000 casualties.
Posts: 403
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Post by Stephen on Jan 24, 2013 7:41:53 GMT -5
Any ideas on how to play guard in 6th as I find that playing them by themselves isn't good enough. I know when 6th first came out they were considered to be one of the best armies in the game but right now I'm not so sure, so if anybody has any ideas please share them.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 24, 2013 9:13:35 GMT -5
Guard do have quite some problems as a primary force for 6th, However there's lots that can be done to address this. I'll post more later as I'm at work.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 24, 2013 10:30:05 GMT -5
Guard are a fantastic army with every tool at their disposal. They are one of the strongest armies in 6th edition. Very few local players field them as a primary detachment. Those that do have consistently done extremely well. There is no army in the game that is used more for allies currently in 6th... why do you think that is? It's NOT because they're bad... lol... They have: 1- the ability to combine platoons into huge squads with hidden power weapons and stubborn. Oh you killed 10 guys? congrats... I have 100 more... oh and they can first rank fire or bring it down on you.... 2 - access to very cheap reserve manipulation that you can just add to your command squad for cheap... 3 - access to bar none the best flyer for the points in the game... and you can take nine of them if you really want to... The reason alot of the top lists are allying in guard is for the Vendetta... if you are not running at LEAST one of them, you are forgoing the best flyer in the game.... 4 - cheap, helpful special characters.... Strakken is a beast - ask anyone who's played Tommy in the last couple years... Marbo? do I have to mention Marbo? 5 - cheap, insanely powerful tanks... leman russes can be taken in squadrons and have whatever weaponry you want. Medusa's with bastion breacher shells ARE anti-tank at it's finest, especially with the changes to blast templates in 6th. Hydras remove air units that are a pain for everyone else. 6. cheap boots on the ground 7. cheap heavy weapons that can be abundantly distributed throughout your list 8. Made for a bastion. This fortification is MADE for guardsmen. Aegis is a trap... don't do it! If you line up your guardsmen and try to flashlight your opponent as a gunline until they smash into your lines you will be disappointed with guard. hold the line is a trap... don't do it! You can be mobile if you want, and anyone who thinks that they can easily take out multiple chimera chasis, melta-vets, vendettas and heavy tank support is lying... no one here plays it... Anytime I've seen it anywhere else it is rough to take out.... I saw the nine vendettas once... sooooo glad I've never had to play THAT in 6th! If you want to bring 200 guardsmen with orders and tank support to hammer your opponent til you charge them you can... just remember to charge... remember to have stubborn blobs with hidden fists and power weapons and they will wreck marines... ask Tommy... or anyone who's played him (using him as an example because he plays this very aggressive style of guard list) .... weight of saves kills anything... They can do mixed lists, armor lists, and mobile lists... leafblower style lists are so crazy hard to deal with STILL... oh you brought those dragons eh? sure... drop your template on my armor... now eat Vendetta lascannons and hydra flakk missiles!!!!! oh and for the "vehicles are so much easier to kill in 6th" comment that will follow mine I'm sure... kill 15 of them...
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 24, 2013 10:39:49 GMT -5
That rant makes me want to actually field my guard as a primary detachment. But I need a couple more Chimeras and a Vendetta or two first....
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 24, 2013 10:45:31 GMT -5
agree with what Shannon said, if you put lots of money in guard I think its the best army... The problem is you need to buy shit load of tank and troops end up being very expensive...
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 24, 2013 10:50:07 GMT -5
Yeah.....that is the big problem. 40 bucks for 50 points of guardsmen is pretty painful. I think I have enough infantry at the moment, but I only have 2 Russes and a Chimera....I'd need way more of those to play as a primary.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 24, 2013 11:02:36 GMT -5
that's the achillies heel of guard... people play what they have because it is one of the most expensive armies to run well (because of the need for so much armor!)... but stringing a line of guardsman to hold back anything with their flashlights is just going to frustrate you to no end.... add vendettas... profit....
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 24, 2013 11:47:59 GMT -5
A good blob is central to Guard I think, but really one is enough....and....more than enough at the same time. Boots on the ground are great, but if that's all you have then you're in trouble. I speak from experience running largely foot guard at one point.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 24, 2013 12:27:06 GMT -5
Alright, It's lunch time, I should be able to a few of my many and more extensive points across.
Guard are the number 1 ally army. They have the ability to ignore FOC restrictions via Squadrons and provide mass bodies on the Cheap. This is why they are the best ally army.
As a primary force, they are actually quite weak imo. Certainly not terrible, but not the top-tier rapetastic choice everyone on the internet things they are.
Guard really struggle to do 2 things very core to 6th. Get into midfield/opponent's DZ, and stay there.
Guard do have some mobility, they have access to cheap transports and arguably the best flyer (through running one myself I'm finding it doesn't live up to it's hype, It still does exactly what I want and expect it to do every game, but it doesn't win game by itself as the internet would tell you).
The problem is, this mobility limits your number of bodies. 10 guardsmen jumping out onto an objective/linebreaker/deny bottom of turn 5 and then the game ending is perfect! However, if the game goes on, those guardsmen are NOT going to survive. (Since even bolters ignore their armour and wound them on 3s!)
Guard also struggle with leadership problems in small units, Sergeants are only Ld8, and if you've got any sort of negative modifier your pretty likely to fail and fall back. and your not a marine, so you've actually got to spend a turn to regroup.
Guard HAVE all the things 6th is big on (durability, mobility, good flyer, lots of scoring) the problem is blending it together. Guard units tend to only be useful for one thing (similar to eldar aspects) and 6th really starts to pay dividends when you can bring units with multiple roles.
So, How do we accomplish this with a PURE guard army?
I do want to build my guard allied detachment into a full guard force over the next while, and I've been looking at how to do this in a 6th ed style manner. These are some of my notes along the way.
HWTs + CCS + Aegis Line + 1 Heavy Artillery Piece (Medusa, Colossus, Hydra) = Backfield
This combo gives a backfield chunk of supporting firepower that can score, go to ground behind the aegis line for a 2+ and pop back up next turn with GBITF.
Russes are superior. Use them as blockers and push them forwards towards the enemy.
I found Russes are super good firepower platforms. I would bring either Demo/HF, or Punisher Cannon + 3x HB. These provide huge threat presence on durable platforms. If you can't gut entire squads with this type of firepower, you have more problems than your heavies.
More Later, as I'm running out of lunch break time.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 24, 2013 14:59:44 GMT -5
I disagree Ray... so completely it's not even funny... and I normally don't disagree so completely with you, so I'm surprised.... Guard are a solid army as primary... more so than an ally (where they're taken for just a few specialists)... Guard struggle to get to midfield and opponent's DZ??? since when??? even foot blob heavy can take the guy that outflanks a blob... scouting sentinels... the excellent air options? the army wide access to mech... how in the world are you not able to get to midfield? anyone who tells you anything wins a game on it's own doesn't know what they're talking about. But to take your example, you take one flyer and it does exactly what you want it to do everytime? sounds like a ringing endorsement to me... 10 guardsmen aren't there to hold objectives... they're there for the melta guns to blow apart your opposing mech... the things that hold objectives are those big cheap blobs...
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Post by Hizack on Jan 24, 2013 16:18:24 GMT -5
I think the best thing a guard army can do is, anything. Which is like what Shannon said. Guards can put boots on the table like Orks, they can do the vehicle, they can do the flyer(without using Elysians). I mean, what else could you want in an army?
One of the best tanks in your book, one of the best flyers in the book, and some of the best infantry choices. I mean, case closed.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 24, 2013 16:31:02 GMT -5
I'll get to blobs later on, there's some serious finesse to building a guard list these days, and I need more time than 10 minutes at lunch to lay out my thoughts. You'll start to see my angle better after I get that up
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Post by nsc on Jan 24, 2013 16:47:21 GMT -5
My friend got most of his lemons back when apoc first came out and they had the 3 for the price of 1.5 pack at gamesdays.
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ak
Scarab swarm
Posts: 36
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Post by ak on Jan 24, 2013 16:54:33 GMT -5
Lasst turni i had guard primary with DA support. can out with 2 wins and 1 loss(best i have done, would have been beter if i hadnt faced shannon second round). The only reason i didnt do full guard was i dont have 2000pts.
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ak
Scarab swarm
Posts: 36
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Post by ak on Jan 24, 2013 16:55:13 GMT -5
Oh i also HATE Doom. Shannon
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