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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 26, 2013 22:47:48 GMT -5
Ok, I've complained about the thing long enough on paper, and now having seen one in action, I've realized that yeah, it is that painful. Dany didn't get it in until like turn 4, and it still mangled a good number of things, and actually managed to stop me from going after either objective. The fact that it can vector strike a unit out of its box and then crap a flamer on them to roast them is REALLY rough.
So, rather than complain, I shall be proactive. Tips on dealing with it? Taking anti-air is a given of course, but a smart Chaos player like Tom or Dany will take out your anti-air before you can turn it loose on the Drake.....
Spreading out is also a good idea, but with 2" coherency and Torrent, it again only saves you so much.
So, thoughts anyone?
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Post by LizardTau on Jan 26, 2013 22:58:31 GMT -5
The hell drake is hard to deal with and you have to be lucky some times depending on what you have to fire at it. But its weak spots is the rear armour, only being 10 means more things can possibly hurt it.
twin linked or weight of fire on the rear armour can hurt it bad if you can get the 6's. Mech armies might be able to ignore it but my army can't although i play tau so i have some twin linked rail guns which if im lucky can get a good hit and take it out pretty good but thats if im lucky, also all my str 5 weapons can hurt the rear armour.
depending on what you have on the board if your orks or anouther horde army, take up your whole half of the board, give it only one shot on you and then it will have to fly off if there is no room for it to move.
ummm thats all i can think of right now lol
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 26, 2013 23:55:57 GMT -5
dammit... just checked... it IS rear armor 10! NOT 12 all around! (shakes fist in Dany's general direction!)
okay that gives an option at least!
Hordes - ensure you spread out so it doesn't have a safe place to land if you can... no landing means crash and burn!
objective sitter? make sure the objective is in a ruin with levels... spread out amongst the levels... force the drake to only target part of the squad! (templates have to choose a level)
stay in your transports if you've got them... vector strike on side armor is better than the squad inside roasted!
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 27, 2013 1:52:57 GMT -5
My poor bikers don't really have a hope do they?
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Post by canadianguy on Jan 27, 2013 6:11:18 GMT -5
It can ignore cover? I don't have the rules.
If you can FNP or Invul your squad, smiles at u new auto include libby with field generator.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 27, 2013 8:49:33 GMT -5
Sorry for the 10 in the back. Wont change that much tho because I will just check my back carefully now  ... Best solutution play Necron with 3 barges dragon will leave one turn and do nothing... If you are Marines well Im sorry there is no solution for you now unless you field a Contemptor like Im doing with my marine...Because like Matt said good Chaos players will VS your Stormtalon or kill your Aegis gun... An other solution with Marine is the good old Rhino... you know the transport that all the net think its useless now... Its a good protection for the Dragon... Dont tell me its an easy first blood like everyone will say on the internet because that ridiculous I always go second have two rhino and I rarely give 1st blood except when I play Shannons list because its the exception to everything with my Chaos so far... |
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Post by LizardTau on Jan 27, 2013 9:35:17 GMT -5
yea the dragon ignores cover cause it uses a flame tenplate.
as for bikes, ya they will have a hard time since it wounds you on a 3+ and you don't get saves, at least you can glance its back armour with your twin linked bolters.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 27, 2013 9:43:24 GMT -5
Some more options:
Bastion with Icarus (quad gun is poor vs. AV 12)
allied guard with Vendetta
if you're bringing storm talons bring two... that way the dragon will die in exchange for one of your talons - IF he's able to vector strike it... so placement is key.. baleflamer can't hurt a storm talon so if you choose to go second... his dragon comes on and flames something, your talon comes on and kills the dragon - IF you took the TL lascannons that is... but I'd bring two just in case it gets lucky with the 5+
use rhinos... very cheap protection...
all bikes? maximize the 2" gap because your bases are bigger than infantry... accept you will lose 5 bikes when the thing comes in... then move ALL your bikes to a rear arc on the dragon and shoot everything that's twin linked into the back arc... shoot it with your whole army if you have to... gives your opponent a free pass for one turn but that's worth it...
The problem is the FAQ. It seriously is the most retarded ruling I've seen GW do in a very, very long time. Must be like their flamer "upgrade" ruling... trick people into buying three of the new kits then reverse the FAQ (happens OFTEN) or give an errata... or release something that completely counters the dragon.
My guess is you will not see the dragon cause Chaos to win all the big tournies however because of necrons... they are the hard counter to dragons... my necrons don't even bring any flyers and I can 100% eliminate a dragon in a turn without even much problem... I know that's little consolation to anyone not playing necrons... but I think at least on the wider scene it will limit people spamming the dragon... I hope... because I don't want to be forced to play necrons (as I don't play transport armies!) in tournaments just so I don't have to worry about damn dragons...
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 27, 2013 9:55:42 GMT -5
Yeah I agree with you Shannon, my Chaos list right now is a little to friendly to compet with your Necron list but I will always bring one dragon for sure dont need more then one... When the Daemon codex is coming out I will adjust and see.
I dont think its a good idea to shoot your whole army to the dragon because if you do that your are 100% dead after because all the rest of my army is intact and will punch you in the face my dragon didnt do that much in my game VS Matt came on turn 4 kill a chimera on VS and 4 bikes total if I remember correctly...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 27, 2013 11:25:10 GMT -5
I go by take the biggest threat and kill it no matter what.... a helldrake with one hull point left is just as effective as if you didn't shoot it at all... either kill it dead, or ignore it completely (ie: what I do with landraiders)
once you've eliminated completely the two biggest threats to your army (there's rarely more than two things that are going to just completely wreck you)... you are in good shape.
target priority + focus fire = profit!
but that's just how I play the game... other people like to try and spread out damage to weaken the army as a whole, concentrate on flanks to improve mobility, stop their opponent's mobility so they can't have board control... etc. etc. (I also employ some of those tactics as well of course)
Matt's bike army really isn't afraid of most of the standard things CSM can bring other than the helldrake.... your entire army isn't as effective against his list as the two biggest threats, flamers and helldrakes are, because they ignore his biker lists' greatest strengths - mobility, T5, armor, and easily gained cover....
a lascannon for example, should be ignored by an all biker list (whoop-dee-doo you killed one bike!)... the helldrake, flamers, high strength AP templates - yeah he needs to focus fire them down or he's dead, dead, dead.... same principles apply vs. other armies of course... ignore the bolters, take out the high strength vindicator templates, etc. etc.
Matt was just looking for tactics vs. the helldrake, which you cannot leave to ravage the battlefield as an all biker list... absolutely nothing else in the CSM list needs to die more quickly than that... my ork biker list will have the same problems... basically all you can do is scoot to back arc (easy with bikers) shoot and pray to the dice gods that you get three HP through...
you need 6 shots on average to get a hit without twin linking.... S5 will net you 2 good results out of six.... and 1/3 of the shots are going to be ignored with the daemon save... so you really need 4 HP to have a decent shot.... so 12 hits... which means with no twin linking 72 shots to kill it....
therefore you need your entire biker army to shoot it.... (twin linking obviously cuts that number drastically to around the 45-50 mark... but you still have to shoot basically everything into it).... yeah you might get lucky... but relying on luck is a sure way to be disappointed I've found....
biker lists can't do half measures against the helldrake... you have to kill it... flyers are incredibly easy to get back arc on because of the speed they have to move... it's pretty much their only weakness other than having to deal with arc of fire... which the helldrake got removed from the equation... which is a HUGE mistake in my books....
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 27, 2013 11:41:18 GMT -5
Yeah, the fact that it came on late Vs Dany was big, and I vector locked it after moving my Typhoons into back arc. It was the Theoretical more so than what actually happened in the game that had me worried. If it came on early and I had more bikes left on the table it would be scary. Coming in, vector striking into a squad, killing 3-ish, then flaming a second one. What it did manage to do was stop me from contesting both objectives, VSing the biker I had claiming Dany's home objective after going off the board and then flaming the squad of guard I had running for my home objective because my blob and Dany's plaguebearers were tied up too far away from it to contest.
Like I just posted in the trade thread, I'm going to try and find a Vendetta to use instead of my Stormtalon.....if not, I'll pry those Typhoons off and get a TL las....unfortunately I built the thing before the Dragon existed, so it was more useful as a ground attack craft. Still, I'd like to have more than 1 flying T/L las shooting at it, because I just know if I pen it once it will make it's 5+ invul!
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 27, 2013 11:48:54 GMT -5
Vendetta is good for sure but my first game of the day was against two vendetta and 7 flyers and my Dragon survived. With Marine your best bet is a Contemptor with two TL Lascannon that hits on 2s and guest what its interceptor so I cant even fried your bikers and Im dead... or the 35 pts FW missile luncher that I have aswell is pretty good...
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Post by redshirt2375 on Jan 27, 2013 14:11:30 GMT -5
Vendetta is good for sure but my first game of the day was against two vendetta and 7 flyers and my Dragon survived. With Marine your best bet is a Contemptor with two TL Lascannon that hits on 2s and guest what its interceptor so I cant even fried your bikers and Im dead... or the 35 pts FW missile luncher that I have aswell is pretty good... I thought I'd pipe in and point out that Danny's post only adds to the fire in that some of the only solutions to the Dragon is Forgeworld models & rules and not that many people are going to have the money to be buying the books & models needed to run those options. |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 27, 2013 15:13:09 GMT -5
Marine codex is not 6th edition yet so yes the only option for marine is FW in my opinion, its not that much more expensive then buying a vendetta and not everybody wants to allied with guard.
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Post by harryf on Jan 27, 2013 20:57:26 GMT -5
if you can get enough s4/s5 fire onto its back armor like devogaunts or conscripts, you should be able to glance it a bit, maybe kill it the next turn
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... Best solutution play Necron with 3 barges dragon will leave one turn and do nothing... 
