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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 27, 2013 21:26:03 GMT -5
I'm surprised no one said ally with BK or GK and get a Raven... TL Multi-Melta with Skyfire is Make an Invul or get messed up, not to mention all the other firepower a BA Raven would be able to shell out. I realize this isn't an ideal option for a lot of armies through...
One thing I've noticed is the Dragon is a rather poor anti-air flyer. It's very anti-ground focused, anti-air flyers like the Vendetta or Stormraven really have an ace-in-the-sleeve against it.
Like Shannon said, Against Bikes, it really has your number, since it's literally the perfect weapon to bypass your advantages. All you can really do is accept the fact that it will come in and hurt you, and then deal with it.
The Dragon shouldn't have you shaking-in-your-boots-cause-its-gunna-kill-your-whole-army scared, It's a wrecking scalpel, not a wrecking ball. Don't let it be a fear based weapon.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 27, 2013 21:53:28 GMT -5
I'm thinking of getting some of those FW missile launchers honestly. Fluffy for the scars, which the Contemptor isn't. I hate to be a total fluff-head, but I just can't let one of my galloping plains warriors get locked in a big metal box.
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Post by calitom on Jan 28, 2013 20:14:59 GMT -5
The best answer to any flyer is massed twin-linked STR 6 or higher shooting. Guess how many armies have access to this? ALL OF THEM. Stop worrying about skyfire and build in redundancies to help get you there. Having an issue with flyers with a full bike army? Pack as many speeders in as you can to give you those chances to deal with it. You just have to treat it like anything else in the game and focus fire it until it's dead. If you happen to waste one turn of shooting and fail to kill it- trust me you won't lose the game to just a single dragon.
Razorbacks, Walkers of any variety, Dakka-fexes or Tyrants, Massed Dark lances or STR 8 of any kind, Twin-linked multi meltas, assault cannons, Psycannons or auto cannon equivalent. Every army has access to this kind of firepower and should really be considering.
The key to a good tournament army is consistency and redundancy built throughout which is why Guard, Space wolves and later Grey Knights dominated the 5th edition tournament scene. The game didn't change that much, so I assure you a competitively built list will deal with all of these threats as long as you keep in mind it is a dice game. You don't have to spam to have built in redundancy, by the way. And you ABSOLUTELY do not need Forge world models. The biggest boon to the Heldrake is that most space marine players have stopped using razorbacks all together, have stopped using support models for what they are intended to do- support the meat of your army.
Perfect example of a Vanilla space marine list that is EXACTLY the same concept.
2000 points vulkan
Vulkan
Rifleman Dread Rifleman Dread
Tactical Squad (Flamer, Multi-melta) Razorback with TL Assault Cannon Tactical Squad (Flamer, Multi-melta) Razorback with TL Assault Cannon Tactical Squad (Flamer, Multi-melta) Razorback with TL Assault Cannon
3 Attack bikes (Multi Melta) 3 Attack bikes (Multi Melta) Stormtalon (TL Lascannon)
Thunderfire Cannon Land Raider with EA and Multi Melta
Give this list as a perfect example of my opinion of a balanced vanilla marine list with Vulkan. EVERYTHING is twin linked save the bolters on the tactical squads. Active use of combat squads and using Vulkan as a means to protect one of your combat squads (That would come with him in the Land Raider). Has things to deal with hordes and absolutely demolishes any army in sight including flyers with enough Twin Linked Shots, melta range or not.
And Guard.
2000 Points
CCS (4 Flamers) in a Chimera CCS (4 Plasmaguns, Warlord) in a Chimera
Marbo
Vets (3 Melta) in Chimera Vets (3 Plasma) in Chimera Vets (3 Plasma) in Chimera Infantry Platoon - PCS (4 Plasma) in Chimera Infantry Squad - Autocannon Infantry Squad - Autocannon Heavy weapon team - 3 Autocannons Heavy weapon team - 3 Autocannons
Vendetta Vendetta
2 Hydra Flakk Batteries in a Squadron Manticore Manticore
Tournament guard in a nutshell. Incredible amount of STR 6 + Shooting, Twin linked on command for a lot of it and what guard does best- flood the field with armor.
These are perfect examples of balanced tournament army lists that can have a single thing (the guard list has multiple, but it's guard) anti-flyer dedicated units but the rest of the list itself can still shoot the (I shouldn't swear) out of a flyer if you have to. The Heldrake is far from the end all be all and people shouldn't respect it, not fear it.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jan 28, 2013 20:35:44 GMT -5
Unloading the Landspeeders into it was something that did work quite well....6 S8 shots are going to do SOMETHING to the thing!
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 28, 2013 20:36:46 GMT -5
I have 15 games with the Dragon so far... 2 Game against Shannon did absolutly nothing, 1 game against Elysian did significant dmg and all other game just fear my opponent and didnt do that much....
When I played you Tom you had 2 Dragons with my marine if I remember corectly I shoot them once with my interceptor then ignore them and at the end of the game you had only that left on the table so I really dont think people should be that scared about Dragon its good but more for the fear aspect.... (You had a bad game for rolling dice)
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Post by LizardTau on Jan 28, 2013 20:42:16 GMT -5
yeah i have proxied it twice and it did nothing both games, but it is pretty cheap so even if its a distraction then its worth it.
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Post by connor on Jan 29, 2013 7:14:07 GMT -5
Dany it actually won you a game against me because it planted itself on my home objective and flamed away my grotz. That game did end on turn 5 and turn 6 would have seen me winning because you had that and like a squad left, but the point remains.
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 29, 2013 8:10:53 GMT -5
ok but killing a couple grotz is not something I consider major impact in a game just happen to be the right move at the right moment... like you said you would have beat me with one more turn... you might have your revenge in thw tournament Im bringing same list
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jan 29, 2013 8:15:16 GMT -5
I'm completely with Tom on this one, Anti-Air is something that can't be ignored in the new edition, and being able to remove a key threat piece like the Dragon can be very important.
I see a lot of people sticking to 5th ed list concepts, as well as people bringing what the internet thinks in the new 6th ed meta (Infantry spam with few or no vehicles), with lists like that, the Dragon is going to be absolutely devastating against you.
Balance is the key. Don't neglect anti-air.
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