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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 10, 2013 12:52:09 GMT -5
As I look at that I'm pretty sure I could win a LOT of games with it. My tourney (mostly) winning list was built straight up to just take advantage of Bladestorm, and it wrecked a lot of face with it. If I could save 100 points I'd actually go all guardians in that list, which give a lot more offense getting out than 10 Avengers IF you need them to get out. Realistically they shouldn't. Drop the shields every turn on the Serpents without anything in them to try and use them to draw fire away from your actual troop transports.....
I still don't like a lot of the things that the article was saying, but I do think that list would actually be rather scary against most things, and I DO own enough models to play it so long as I proxy some falcon bodies as Serpents if anyone wants to test out against it for fun.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 10, 2013 14:13:03 GMT -5
I actually wouldn't run holo-fields at all... but that's just me... throwing a ton of upgrades on anything is a trap and causes you to be outgunned for minimal benefit...
I'm not sure why you're taking such issue with a respected author on a respected site pointing out one of your units is good, and in such a way as to change the meta (as agreed to by the majority of comments on that article by the way)
whatever, if you don't want to run wave serpents don't... for other people looking to face serpents (and I don't believe I'll EVER face a competetive Eldar list that doesn't include them) some tactial ideas on how they may be faced I think has merit, or with a new player looking at picking up Eldar, tactical uses of a wave serpent would also have merit.
At 130 (no holo-fields) points, in my opinion they are fantastic... and if you note on my comparison with annihilation barges (which are also fantastic) there is no mention of holo-fields.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 10, 2013 16:06:33 GMT -5
I guess I can see not running them if you're taking 6, but less than that for a +1 cover save if moving giving you a 4+ just for existing most times is hard for me to pass up, especially if I'm going to be running around shooting the shields off commonly. What's better than suffering a Glance instead of a Pen? NOT suffering any damage at all!
Of course Tau kinda throw a wrench into that with the crazy amount of ignoring cover, but say you ARE firing off all your shields, you can probably blow most of the marker lights off the table and then have minimum 50/50 (assuming you're not near cover) to ignore that Railgun coming back at you.
I've also never said I don't want to run Serpents...I'll run 2 or 3 in EVERY list I write unless I'm doing something fluffy for kicks like a full Ranger list (which I don't think can cost enough to make points anymore...), I'm just not sure that taking 5 or 6 of them is the best plan. The reasoning behind this is Jetbikes and Rangers, two fantastic and cheap units that eat troops slots. For one more point than a marine, you can make him go 48" in a turn and rend with the same defensive stats.... So it means you're either ignoring them to get more Avengers/Guardians to cram into Serpents, or you're taking Serpents for Elites/Heavy choices, which cuts down on your scoring bodies.
It is a well written article, with some very good ideas regarding facing Eldar in general and how to avoid their crazy ability to hit Side armour (jetbikes hunting side have been huge for me), I'm just still not sold that the turn 1 alpha strike is the way to run Serpents in most situations.
That said, I just learned that Serpent Shields apparently work in combat? I still think tank shocking with a Serpent is a pretty bad idea unless you NEED it to happen, as you can't do the 36" tank shocks anymore, you can't escort units off the board anymore, and you are EXTREMELY vulnerable to assault in the enemy turn....even a S4 combat unit will glance a serpent off the board a good chunk of the time, not to mention if they have any grenades. You have good range on a Serpent, especially if you're going to shoot the shield. Use it!
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 10, 2013 19:56:44 GMT -5
Serpent shields do NOT block combat attacks, they only work against shots from the front and side. They do not work against attacks hitting rear armour (AKA close combat attacks with the except of vector strikes cus they are on side armour)
I'll definitely be running serpents in every list, but I'll probably never use more than 2 in any list, possibly 3 if they release some sort of Saim Hann supplement (and hopefully that rumoured Chariot Character I still want but will probably never happen...) and I want to bring a combat aspect like Scorps or Banshees
The serpent is still a strong choice, but it's not worth building an entire list around.
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Post by canadianguy on Jul 10, 2013 21:42:17 GMT -5
I would never base a list just around them. They are a solid transport, if they had assault, muahhhhh.
I think when ever your army has excellent mobility options via transports its hard not to take a few, now add that it is survivable and has decent shooting my god why not take a few.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 10, 2013 22:44:34 GMT -5
Serpent shields do NOT block combat attacks, they only work against shots from the front and side. They do not work against attacks hitting rear armour (AKA close combat attacks with the except of vector strikes cus they are on side armour) That's what I thought and how I was running them. I guess they would block CC attacks from Death or Glory though which is what confused me. |
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Post by voodoo on Jul 18, 2013 9:18:44 GMT -5
Speaking to the alpha strike the author mentioned in his article and also for the should you/shouldn’t you go first; the alpha strike could work if the opposing player saw the wave serpent line and thought “poop on a stick – that’s a lotta alpha strike potential” then started lots of their stuff in reserves thus allowing the eldar player to either use the alpha strike or charge the board in an attempt to table said opponent before their reserves can come in.
In the end it comes down to the poker hand effect. If your opponent perceives the serpent to be a massive threat, they’ll “hide” from it, using terrain, model cover, etc.; thus making them deploy differently than they had expected and forcing them to adjust to you before the game even begins whether you planned on alpha striking them or not. It’s the perception that the serpents can possibly do a ton of damage that’ll have as much if not more an effect on the game as the models themselves.
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