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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 9, 2013 7:04:16 GMT -5
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 9, 2013 11:10:31 GMT -5
I really don't want to devolve to the point of some of the comments on that article, but I disagree with some of the "playing against eldar" tips. An eldar player worth his/her salt is NOT going to alpha strike you with their serpent shields on Turn 1, ESPECIALLY if the return firepower is in any way decent. The Shield is a shield, and when you don't need it to be a shield anymore you can use it as a gun to clear infantry.
The wave serpent, while it does effectively kill Light Armour, is really about putting down lots of reliable wounds on infantry like marines. The versatility is nice to have, but it's not the primary role.
Like I said, I don't want to turn this into a flame war like some of the comments, but treating the shield as a gun first and a shield second will leave your scoring bodies or aspect warriors rather unhappy, and when you drop that shield, you will really regret having models inside when it blows up, as the Serpent is really not tougher than a Devilfish with Dpods once that shield is down, and far more expensive. (Yes, I realize that's still very tough.)
I'm not saying the serpent isn't very good. It's incredibly good. But it's not a game breaker, it shouldn't be spammed, and it isn't what the internet is making it out to be.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 9, 2013 13:11:56 GMT -5
Agree with Ray 100%. I'll mostly keep my mouth shut, but I did not enjoy that article when I first saw it.
Shooting the shield certainly has it's use, and I do it a few times a game, but I find it MUCH more likely to be fired in the late stages of the game once your Serpent has already carried its cargo to an objective and you've eliminated most enemy long range anti-tank. Trust me that if a Serpent has it's shields go down, your opponent WILL kill it if they have any decent ranged anti-tank at all.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 9, 2013 13:23:42 GMT -5
devil's advocate here....
say you have 4+ serpents... you can't say that 4D6+4 S7 twin linked ignoring cover shots at 60" on the first turn is a bad strategy to add to your firepower, given that against skimmers and the like they will not have moved for their jink save, FMC's won't be yet flying, and turn one return fire is going to be minimal and likely to need to move into range... you'll have moved so now you get a jink save, plus AV12 isn't exactly paper defenses...
you lose the auto-ignore pen hits, yes... however that doesn't exactly make you not survivable for an insane amount of far reaching firepower.
someone that voluntarily refuses to fire that many autocannon shots at me for a defensive boost? I'm fairly okay with that... In fact, I'm perfectly okay with you not getting a pen hit if I get to completely avoid D6+1 S7 twin linked shots.... but once again, that's just the other side of the coin from someone who doesn't get to have wave serpents. Shouldn't be spammed... lol... good one... we'll see if that's how that rolls out...
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Post by canadianguy on Jul 9, 2013 14:55:49 GMT -5
Why wouldn,t you spam them? As a sisters player t3 no matter you armour invul save isn't,t what you want to be footslogging across the board. One of the things that seems to be coming out for me this edition is that troop carriers are even more important because of the increase in the importance of movement, increased cover ignoring weapons, and assault vehicles really are amazing!!!. Please omfg please give inquisitors access to raiders again oops sorry had a moment. I would tend to think 3 or more serpents per list will become the norm. To shoot your shield or not? Thinking it is very situational as has been shown there are goof times to do one or the other.
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Post by LizardTau on Jul 9, 2013 15:25:54 GMT -5
It will depend on the situation. If u have three railhead starring u down u probably won't use the shield. As they will pen u easy and av 13 is hard to take out.
Also the ignore cover part u don't care if the skimmers moved yet or not. No jink either way
Sent from my GT-I9100M using proboards
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 9, 2013 16:01:28 GMT -5
but no cover for rhino walls either
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 9, 2013 18:35:48 GMT -5
That's true Shannon, if you had 4+ serpents, it would be rather significant firepower. The problem is, those 4 serpents cost 580 points. Not to mention the squads you have to buy to go in them. For those types of points, you better be putting out serious firepower.
The wave serpent is really really good when you take 2 or 3 of them. But it starts to get unrealistic to take more than that due to points costs and the fact that while the serpent puts out a lot of dakka, it's very mixed dakka. It's not really good at anything except volume of fire. If you want lower AP, you have to get that elsewhere, if you want higher volume of shots, you have to get that elsewhere. If you want Str 8+ shots or Lances, you have to get that elsewhere.
The serpent has a LOT going for it, but it's not the be-all-end-all. There's plenty of ways to get firepower that's just as good, if not better than what the serpent provides.
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Post by canadianguy on Jul 9, 2013 20:28:56 GMT -5
Curious, what do you feel are the best units to put in serpents and why? I know it use to be fire dragons and banshees for very different reasons but what now?
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 9, 2013 20:45:34 GMT -5
For me it's generally Dire Avengers and Guardians at this point, simply because they score and Shuriken weapons are disgusting. It gives you a turn of the most ridiculous firepower when you drop off the squad and unload the serpent as well.
I've also found Scorpions in one to be interesting, simply for the fact that it lets you infiltrate a Serpent and just dump the Scorps out turn 1. If someone castles it can often get you close range side armour early.
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jul 9, 2013 22:56:50 GMT -5
As for the alpha strike idea, I can see it working against certain builds given 60" range and night fighting, but you're still giving up one of the better defensive abilities in the game against dedicated heavy anti-tank for something that could only fire two shots, and if you're close enough to be twin-linking, most things are able to shoot back at you....though of course Guide and Prescience are always options.
It's one of those things that is certainly viable against someone that say, has a wack of Autocannons or Tesla as anti-tank...the anti-penning isn't going to help you a bunch given that they'll likely just glance you to death, while you can be insta-killing Guard auto-cannon teams or busting up side armour. Against someone who has a bunch of Railguns or Dark Lances that can ignore night fight, it's suddenly a much worse idea (though against fragile DE vehicles it could be more of one).
4+ Serpents still seems prohibitively expensive to me, though I might give that build a try just for fun some time with some proxied Falcon bodies that I don't have turrets for. Always worth giving something a try.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jul 10, 2013 5:49:32 GMT -5
Well for 40 points more than an annihilation barge you get: AV12 all the time (unlike the barge that goes down to 11 after a pen) the possibility to just ignore pens outright double the range on the guns (shield is nearly triple the range) AP on everything except the shield Rending on the shuriken weapons Transport abilities If you fire the shield you can get MORE attacks than the barge at HIGHER strength that ignore cover JUST from this weapon alone! Doesn't take up a heavy slot so you can take ALOT more If you don't fire the shield, you get the same number of S6 shots not counting any Tesla bonus hits not opened top limited choice of upgrading weaponry (the barge can switch to an inferior weapon for free lol) 580 for four? expensive? seriously? Annihilation barges are widely regarded as one of the most broken things in the necron codex and the serpent is WAY ahead on just about everything for 40 points more (and don't forget if you WANT them to have those lances etc. you can still have a Twin linked one for the same price as the scatter laser!) These things are utterly fantastic. the cost of adding a troop to them is a BONUS... giving troops (the thing you need to win 5/6 of all games) probably the best transport/gunboat in the game is just great
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Post by calitom on Jul 10, 2013 6:04:34 GMT -5
Ray, I think you're speaking crazy. The Wave Serpent and Blade Storm are the REASONS the Eldar codex is competitive right now, bar none. They didn't suddenly make T 3 guys good enough to win games on their own. Wraithknights and Avatars aren't soloing games either, so you sit there and consider the things available to you- what is truly competitive for the points and understand what it is in your list that's really lifting all of the weight.
The only two things in your codex that I think are over the top are Wave Serpents (BECAUSE of Serpent shield + Scatter Laser) and Bladestorm as a rule, everything else is very fair and realistic for the points you spend on them.
You have to realize how much things cost that have the amount of twin-linked firepower you get for a Wave Serpent, then realize that they are incredibly under priced for the amount of firepower vs survivability they have as a vehicle.
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Post by canadianguy on Jul 10, 2013 8:11:54 GMT -5
Thoughts then on a guardian/avenger serpents heavy list? What as your cc go to unit? I really love the idea of using lots of troops and transports but I haven't seen enough to figure out what is best for being your go to assault unit(s) as harlies and banshees aren't seeming so great.
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Post by Frosty the Pirate on Jul 10, 2013 12:43:06 GMT -5
One thing to note Shannon is that article doesn't include holo fields in the cost. The serpent in it's spammable configuration is actually 145 points, not 130. making 55 more than a barge. I agree it's incredible for the cost, but it's not going to do what that article says it will do.
If the serpent is really that awesome, then then following list should be TERRIFYING and win every game it ever plays.
OMG SERPENTS!
Farseer - Guide, Prescience and 1 more power from Div Farseer - Guide, Prescience and 1 more power from Div 2 Warlocks - Conceal
5 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent with Cannon, Scatter and Holofields 5 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent with Cannon, Scatter and Holofields 5 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent with Cannon, Scatter and Holofields 5 Dire Avengers - Wave Serpent with Cannon, Scatter and Holofields 20 Guardians - 2 Bright Lances, Wave Serpent with Cannon, Scatter and Holofields 20 Guardians - 2 Bright Lances, Wave Serpent with Cannon, Scatter and Holofields
3 War Walkers with Bright Lances 3 War Walkers with Bright Lances
I actually own 90% of the models to build this, and I would NEVER run it. Why? It will NEVER win an objective based game. And I need to check the cost of War Walkers to make sure, but off the top of my head, this isn't even legal in a 2000 point list.
If someone really thinks this is terrifying, I'll gladly play it against them. I guarantee you all it's just another internet gimmick list like CronAir.
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