Post by stonecutter on Aug 3, 2013 11:43:26 GMT -5
Well, the new lizzie book is out and I have had a good read through it. Overall, another balanced update that is very much in keeping with the other 8th ed books. Unfortunately, the balance was achieved through blandness and, at the end of the day, I felt a little unsatisfied as so much more could have been done to provide variety and spice in the army without making it crazy powerful. On the bright side (for non-lizzie players that is!), all the annoying and overpowered stuff for the slaan is gone while sallies got sufficiently nerfed to make them mild cheddar rather than extra, extra, extra old :-) Without any further ado, here is a quick synopsis IMHO of the major changes by category followed by a few general comments about the overall impact.
ARMY WIDE RULES:
a) Cold-blooded remains as do the poisoned skink shooting rules.
b) Skinks - army wide gain scaly skin 6+ but all LD values reduced by 1.
c) Predatory Fighter (PF) - all saurus have this and it gives them an extra attack if they roll a 6 to hit. The drawback is they can only test to restrain pursuit if a skink character model is within 6" (i.e. a skink "tax").
d) Aquatic - an improved version of the BRB strider rules in that they retain ranks, steadfast and can march through rivers.
e) Scaly Skin - as before but skinks now get a 6+ which makes javelins & shields a better option in most cases.
f) High Magic - same as high elves except the lore attribute allows the slaan to change out the spell just cast for a randomly determined one from any other lore if desired. This will provide great in game flexibility to access some key signature spells like searing doom, wissans, etc. and the new lore attribute also applies when the new spell is cast.
CHARACTERS:
Slaan:
Effectively, the slaan is now just a regular 4th level wizard with a couple extra wounds and a ward save. No more stealing 6s, adding an extra die to every casting attempt or bouncing your miscast to the enemy so there will be much rejoicing outside the lizzie community. While they are an infantry model, the palanquin rule renders ineligible to be affected by rules, spells, etc. that affect "models on foot" - the only consequence I can see is that Transformation of Kadron is still not available to them.
a) Disciplines - Again, may take up to 4 disciplines but they are markedly reduced in effectiveness although still useful. One neat one is having all 8 signature spells. The only loremaster option is for High Magic (cannot be combined with the 8 signature spells discipline) but I can see this one being standard due to the lore attribute and starting with 8 spells.
b) Arcane Vassal - allows direct damage and magic missiles to be cast through skink priests within 24" of the slaan with the range determined from the vassal, not the slaan.
c) Temple Guard synergy - As before but two slight improvements. The slaan always makes the "look out, sir" roll and the slaan is not obligated to join or stay with the TG during the battle.
Old Bloods & Scar Vets - a few points cheaper and weapon options are also slightly less. The OB lost one point of initiative. SV can take a carnie as a mount but since carnie is even more overpriced, I don't really see them making an appearance.
Skink Chiefs - half the cost of a SV but only LD 6. Likely only worth taking for themed lists or perhaps to grant restrain tests for PF units.
Skink Priests - much more flexible since they now have access to both lore of beasts & heavens. Between ability to vassal & restrain PFs, a far better option than skink chiefs.
Special Characters - Tettoeko is still the best SC with similar rules (vanguard vice redeploy units & re-roll 1's when casting every turn vice IF on doubles once) at a fairly low point cost. The rest are still ridiculously overpriced and mediocre at best. Revised - Lord Kroak is actually a viable option (albeit boring since he has but one spell) for the following reasons:
1) costs much less than a fully kitted regular slaan
2) resistant to miscasts - on a 2+ simply takes a hit and drains dice.
3) unit boost - his TG are unbreakable and -1 to hit with shooting & close combat.
4) Deliverance of Itza (AoE bomb causing 2d6 x S4 or 3d6 vs undead/daemons) can be cast through a vassal as well as Kroak.
CORE TROOPS:
Saurus - as before but gain PF and spears are a free upgrade. This was a major disappointment as the return of sacred spawnings would have provided a nice ability to change up the army along the lines of marked WoC.
Skink Skirmish - same points and since javelin & shield are a free upgrade, I would expect to see a lot more 5+ AS skinks on the field.
Skink Cohort - A significant nerf. Points the same for skinks and they retain poison shooting and now have a 5+ AS. Same rules for krox supporting attacks & filling ranks but skinks are now subject to being stomped & the krox can be attacked by enemy models in contact with the front rank of skinks. Skinks can be given poison upgrade for CC at 2 points/model but not worth the price IMHO. The krox are now slightly cheaper and S5 (7 with G/W) but are likely to die before they get in their attacks.
SPECIAL TROOPS:
Temple Guard - Identical to before but 2 points less/model. A viable alternative to regular saurus due to better stats, ability to take magic banner and the flexibility not to park the slaan in the unit unless desired.
Jungle Swarms - cheaper and garbage on their own but gained a special rule, "They're Everywhere", that makes their employment similar to vamp bat swarms. The rule states that ALL attacks directed at a unit in contact with a swarm are poisoned. So, toss a swarm in just in contact on a corner with a horde of saurus/TG and watch all those predatory fighters get poisoned attacks!!
Chamo skinks - one point more expensive but the same.
Saurus Cav - still egregiously overpriced garbage and "spear" is a 4 point upgrade while the unit cannot even take a magic banner!!
Kroxigor - a few minor tweaks that make them a little better overall. Cheaper, gain PF and have S5/7 with great weapons. The champ upgrade might even be worth it. Toss in a jungle swarm and these boyz could really lay a beating on something - assuming they survive and get in their ASL attacks.
Terradons - Terradons now I2 but more expensive with lower LD and a "meh" option for very short range flaming shots vice poisoned javelins. On the bright side, they cause fear.
Rippers - Full name too silly to repeat. A better option than terradons for vanguard, fear causing, MC fliers to take out soft, high value targets. The mounts are frenzied & have KB and one enemy unit can be marked with "Toad Rage" that allows re-rolls to hit and improves frenzy to d3+1. Pricey but a better option than terradons due to an extra 2 attacks/model, higher initiative, 4+ AS and KB.
Baby Steg - combined model and moderately cheaper. Upgrades include devastating charge or d3 wounds/impact hit.
Bastiladon (now known as Beastieboy) - an interesting monster option with a 2+ AS and a S10 tail attack at a reasonable price. The base ark of sotek does 2d6 x S2 hits to enemy within d6" and can increase the size of nearby jungle swarms. Alternatively, the solar engine (free replacement for the Ark) improves nearby lizzie initiative by 1 and has a decent 24" bound magic missile.
RARE UNITS:
Ancient Steg - baseline model is much cheaper but even with the d3 wounds/impact hit upgrade it is still ~10% less than before. Giant blowpipes now have 18" range but poison will be ineffective at long range if the model moved since it has multiple shots rule (unless buffed by high magic). Engine of the gods can be taken without a character but it has been sufficiently nerfed that it is not worth taking in lieu of giant blowpipes, especially since it is a very expensive upgrade. Only drawback is that it has remained at 5 wounds vice 6+, which would be in keeping with other monsters in its class.
Sallies - Most opponents will be happier with the changes. Sallies are slightly more expensive but are now MB vice WB - meaning they get to stomp @ S5 rather than being stomped themselves but will lose swiftstride. The ability to march and shoot is gone and the template is straight S4, flaming (no -3 to save but auto panic check remains since it uses the fire thrower rules).
Razordons - cheaper, 18" range shooting, Quick to Fire, change to MB and loss of marching and shooting. Slightly better than before but still not really in the same class as sallies IMHO. However, the QTF and MB changes will make them much better at wiping out enemy chaff units.
Troglodon - This is what you get when you combine an immature carnie, a sallie and a skink priest acolyte. The result is "meh" combat ability, limited BS shooting and it can vassal slaan spells. For the points, better off with just about any other monster.
MAGIC ITEMS:
Cube of Darkness - cheaper and works on a 2+ for both the spell in question & RIPs but no ending of the magic phase on a 4+.
Steggie Helm - +1 AS, +1 T & d3 impact hits but uses most of a SV's point allocation.
All the remaining items are grossly overpriced for what they do so it is back to the BRB magic items list for most things.
OVERALL IMPACT ON LIZZIE LISTS:
The nerfing of magic heavy slaan lists makes them more reasonable but the slaan is still a good caster and the LD 9, BSB and synergy with TG will likely result in very similar builds. However, multiple skink priest builds with beast lore are a viable alternative since it would be possible to bring two dispel scrolls (cube & BRB scroll) for much less than a single slaan. The ability to help restrain PF troops is also an advantage. A big disappointment was not having a slaan alternative in the form of a skink high priest as the slaan is very expensive but that wouldn't really mesh fluff-wise.
The improvements to krox and cheaper/newer monsters make a monster mash list easier to achieve. However, unlike the other 8th ed books, there are no "must have units" as the only new monster even worth consider is the beastieboy and even it is "meh". On the other hand, steggies are slightly better so a multiple steg list is both more affordable and effective. Also, the synergy between the various units (jungle swarms & beastieboy with TG) will provide some slight variety of vanilla in lists but nothing along the lines of what the HE are capable of (i.e. all shooty, all combat, all cav, flying circus, etc. ). I don't expect massive changes to builds until 9th edition arrives and dramatically alters the impact of magic and the need for a 4th level caster for defense.
ARMY WIDE RULES:
a) Cold-blooded remains as do the poisoned skink shooting rules.
b) Skinks - army wide gain scaly skin 6+ but all LD values reduced by 1.
c) Predatory Fighter (PF) - all saurus have this and it gives them an extra attack if they roll a 6 to hit. The drawback is they can only test to restrain pursuit if a skink character model is within 6" (i.e. a skink "tax").
d) Aquatic - an improved version of the BRB strider rules in that they retain ranks, steadfast and can march through rivers.
e) Scaly Skin - as before but skinks now get a 6+ which makes javelins & shields a better option in most cases.
f) High Magic - same as high elves except the lore attribute allows the slaan to change out the spell just cast for a randomly determined one from any other lore if desired. This will provide great in game flexibility to access some key signature spells like searing doom, wissans, etc. and the new lore attribute also applies when the new spell is cast.
CHARACTERS:
Slaan:
Effectively, the slaan is now just a regular 4th level wizard with a couple extra wounds and a ward save. No more stealing 6s, adding an extra die to every casting attempt or bouncing your miscast to the enemy so there will be much rejoicing outside the lizzie community. While they are an infantry model, the palanquin rule renders ineligible to be affected by rules, spells, etc. that affect "models on foot" - the only consequence I can see is that Transformation of Kadron is still not available to them.
a) Disciplines - Again, may take up to 4 disciplines but they are markedly reduced in effectiveness although still useful. One neat one is having all 8 signature spells. The only loremaster option is for High Magic (cannot be combined with the 8 signature spells discipline) but I can see this one being standard due to the lore attribute and starting with 8 spells.
b) Arcane Vassal - allows direct damage and magic missiles to be cast through skink priests within 24" of the slaan with the range determined from the vassal, not the slaan.
c) Temple Guard synergy - As before but two slight improvements. The slaan always makes the "look out, sir" roll and the slaan is not obligated to join or stay with the TG during the battle.
Old Bloods & Scar Vets - a few points cheaper and weapon options are also slightly less. The OB lost one point of initiative. SV can take a carnie as a mount but since carnie is even more overpriced, I don't really see them making an appearance.
Skink Chiefs - half the cost of a SV but only LD 6. Likely only worth taking for themed lists or perhaps to grant restrain tests for PF units.
Skink Priests - much more flexible since they now have access to both lore of beasts & heavens. Between ability to vassal & restrain PFs, a far better option than skink chiefs.
Special Characters - Tettoeko is still the best SC with similar rules (vanguard vice redeploy units & re-roll 1's when casting every turn vice IF on doubles once) at a fairly low point cost. The rest are still ridiculously overpriced and mediocre at best. Revised - Lord Kroak is actually a viable option (albeit boring since he has but one spell) for the following reasons:
1) costs much less than a fully kitted regular slaan
2) resistant to miscasts - on a 2+ simply takes a hit and drains dice.
3) unit boost - his TG are unbreakable and -1 to hit with shooting & close combat.
4) Deliverance of Itza (AoE bomb causing 2d6 x S4 or 3d6 vs undead/daemons) can be cast through a vassal as well as Kroak.
CORE TROOPS:
Saurus - as before but gain PF and spears are a free upgrade. This was a major disappointment as the return of sacred spawnings would have provided a nice ability to change up the army along the lines of marked WoC.
Skink Skirmish - same points and since javelin & shield are a free upgrade, I would expect to see a lot more 5+ AS skinks on the field.
Skink Cohort - A significant nerf. Points the same for skinks and they retain poison shooting and now have a 5+ AS. Same rules for krox supporting attacks & filling ranks but skinks are now subject to being stomped & the krox can be attacked by enemy models in contact with the front rank of skinks. Skinks can be given poison upgrade for CC at 2 points/model but not worth the price IMHO. The krox are now slightly cheaper and S5 (7 with G/W) but are likely to die before they get in their attacks.
SPECIAL TROOPS:
Temple Guard - Identical to before but 2 points less/model. A viable alternative to regular saurus due to better stats, ability to take magic banner and the flexibility not to park the slaan in the unit unless desired.
Jungle Swarms - cheaper and garbage on their own but gained a special rule, "They're Everywhere", that makes their employment similar to vamp bat swarms. The rule states that ALL attacks directed at a unit in contact with a swarm are poisoned. So, toss a swarm in just in contact on a corner with a horde of saurus/TG and watch all those predatory fighters get poisoned attacks!!
Chamo skinks - one point more expensive but the same.
Saurus Cav - still egregiously overpriced garbage and "spear" is a 4 point upgrade while the unit cannot even take a magic banner!!
Kroxigor - a few minor tweaks that make them a little better overall. Cheaper, gain PF and have S5/7 with great weapons. The champ upgrade might even be worth it. Toss in a jungle swarm and these boyz could really lay a beating on something - assuming they survive and get in their ASL attacks.
Terradons - Terradons now I2 but more expensive with lower LD and a "meh" option for very short range flaming shots vice poisoned javelins. On the bright side, they cause fear.
Rippers - Full name too silly to repeat. A better option than terradons for vanguard, fear causing, MC fliers to take out soft, high value targets. The mounts are frenzied & have KB and one enemy unit can be marked with "Toad Rage" that allows re-rolls to hit and improves frenzy to d3+1. Pricey but a better option than terradons due to an extra 2 attacks/model, higher initiative, 4+ AS and KB.
Baby Steg - combined model and moderately cheaper. Upgrades include devastating charge or d3 wounds/impact hit.
Bastiladon (now known as Beastieboy) - an interesting monster option with a 2+ AS and a S10 tail attack at a reasonable price. The base ark of sotek does 2d6 x S2 hits to enemy within d6" and can increase the size of nearby jungle swarms. Alternatively, the solar engine (free replacement for the Ark) improves nearby lizzie initiative by 1 and has a decent 24" bound magic missile.
RARE UNITS:
Ancient Steg - baseline model is much cheaper but even with the d3 wounds/impact hit upgrade it is still ~10% less than before. Giant blowpipes now have 18" range but poison will be ineffective at long range if the model moved since it has multiple shots rule (unless buffed by high magic). Engine of the gods can be taken without a character but it has been sufficiently nerfed that it is not worth taking in lieu of giant blowpipes, especially since it is a very expensive upgrade. Only drawback is that it has remained at 5 wounds vice 6+, which would be in keeping with other monsters in its class.
Sallies - Most opponents will be happier with the changes. Sallies are slightly more expensive but are now MB vice WB - meaning they get to stomp @ S5 rather than being stomped themselves but will lose swiftstride. The ability to march and shoot is gone and the template is straight S4, flaming (no -3 to save but auto panic check remains since it uses the fire thrower rules).
Razordons - cheaper, 18" range shooting, Quick to Fire, change to MB and loss of marching and shooting. Slightly better than before but still not really in the same class as sallies IMHO. However, the QTF and MB changes will make them much better at wiping out enemy chaff units.
Troglodon - This is what you get when you combine an immature carnie, a sallie and a skink priest acolyte. The result is "meh" combat ability, limited BS shooting and it can vassal slaan spells. For the points, better off with just about any other monster.
MAGIC ITEMS:
Cube of Darkness - cheaper and works on a 2+ for both the spell in question & RIPs but no ending of the magic phase on a 4+.
Steggie Helm - +1 AS, +1 T & d3 impact hits but uses most of a SV's point allocation.
All the remaining items are grossly overpriced for what they do so it is back to the BRB magic items list for most things.
OVERALL IMPACT ON LIZZIE LISTS:
The nerfing of magic heavy slaan lists makes them more reasonable but the slaan is still a good caster and the LD 9, BSB and synergy with TG will likely result in very similar builds. However, multiple skink priest builds with beast lore are a viable alternative since it would be possible to bring two dispel scrolls (cube & BRB scroll) for much less than a single slaan. The ability to help restrain PF troops is also an advantage. A big disappointment was not having a slaan alternative in the form of a skink high priest as the slaan is very expensive but that wouldn't really mesh fluff-wise.
The improvements to krox and cheaper/newer monsters make a monster mash list easier to achieve. However, unlike the other 8th ed books, there are no "must have units" as the only new monster even worth consider is the beastieboy and even it is "meh". On the other hand, steggies are slightly better so a multiple steg list is both more affordable and effective. Also, the synergy between the various units (jungle swarms & beastieboy with TG) will provide some slight variety of vanilla in lists but nothing along the lines of what the HE are capable of (i.e. all shooty, all combat, all cav, flying circus, etc. ). I don't expect massive changes to builds until 9th edition arrives and dramatically alters the impact of magic and the need for a 4th level caster for defense.
