Focus Fire Part 2 and Beyond

[Jack Shrapnel]

was early when I posted my response... needed to be clearer... if the IC is also given the same cover you're giving the squad you can't focus fire him out so be careful about positioning because you can only focus fire with DIFFERENT cover saves (ie: Draigo has a 5+ but his unit has a 4+ you can focus on Draigo... you put a unit in front of Draigo and 4 members of his squad but 1 paladin is not covered by this cover, you can focus fire on the one paladin OR Draigo and his buddies... can't pick Draigo out if he has the same cover)

sorry, that is what I was trying to get at... was unclear....

[Frosty the Pirate]

Oh yes, this tactic is exactly the reverse of what you want to target a character. Even if you could pick out Draigo due to him having a worse cover save, he can still take LoS! rolls and pawn the wounds off on his buddies because LoS!'s reallocation appears to supersede Focus Fire. Through that would be an interesting question for a GW FAQ update and I kinda want to know the answer now...

[Frosty the Pirate]

Another interesting interaction I just thought of. What happens when you factor in Go To Ground?

Example:

5 Tactical Marines are in some cover, 2 of them are standing in a Ruin (4+) and others in a Forest (5+), the opposing side chooses to focus fire nominating 5+ (meaning only models with a 5+ or worse cover save can be hit), in response, the marine player chooses to Go To Ground, improving all of his cover saves to 3+ (+2 for forest + area terrain, and +1 for Ruin), do the hits simply get ignored now since no model is eligible to have wounds allocated to them? Or does Focus Fire apply to the base cover save before any modifiers such as Stealth/Shrouding/Go To Ground are applied?

[voodoo]

In that instance, I’d argue the firing unit can re-designate the target of their focus fire or the unit being fired upon would have to state it was going to ground before any hits are scored so the firing player would then have the proper cover save focus fire to designate.

However, if it works like Interceptor then the instance you described might just be the way to outsmart focus fire.

[Jack Shrapnel]

You pick the models with the save... if they go to ground, only those models can be focus fired upon... would be my thought... you don't lose your shots I'm sure...
Actually it may be that as soon as you're firing on the unit, they declare whether they go to ground, then you can focus fire... that would make the most sense in order of operations, although I'm not sure if that's spelled out like that....

[redshirt2375]

I don't have my BRB here at work, but I think Go to Ground is chosen before saves are rolled so it would be after you've already chosen to Focus Fire, which is done before rolling To Hit. I could (and likely am) wrong though

[Hizack]

Well, if the squad goes to ground with some in ruins and some in forest then they all technically have the 3+ save so you can't focus fire anymore. Not to say it removes your shots because the shots that hit are shots that hit. It would just go back to killing the closest models assuming you do any unsaved wounds.

[Frosty the Pirate]

Aug 30, 2013 15:48:52 GMT -5 redshirt2375 said:

I don't have my BRB here at work, but I think Go to Ground is chosen before saves are rolled so it would be after you've already chosen to Focus Fire, which is done before rolling To Hit. I could (and likely am) wrong though

This is correct, you can choose to go to ground well after the choice to Focus Fire has passed. The only requirement for Go To Ground as that no saves have been taken yet. Focus Fire has to be done before any To-Hits are rolled.

Here's my thoughts atm,

RAW: You can Go To Ground and improve your cover save beyond what you are allowed to allocate wounds to, since no models can be allocated to, the wounds are lost.

RAI: The Go To Ground modifier is applied AFTER you calculate who is eligible to have wounds allocated to them, so your focus fired models still get hit, but they still also get their improved cover save.

Just strictly thinking from a tactical sense, the RAW version has play and counter-play available, since forcing an opponent to go to ground voluntarily really limits what that unit can do next turn in exchange for dismissing that single wound pool against it. (since further attacks would be able to take the GTG save into account), through from a realistic perspective the RAI version makes more sense as a series of actions.

I'm going to send a FAQ request to GW, since really we can't argue RAW vs RAI.

Pg 19, Second Paragraph, left column

Note that you work out which models in the target unit can have wound allocated to them at the time the focus fire is declared. If the unit chooses to go to ground, this will not alter which models can have wound allocated to them even through their cover save has changed.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I wouldn't try arguing that "no, I went to ground so you can't shoot me at all because you wanted to focus fire"... I for one would make you pull out a rulebook, find a rule where you are ALLOWED to suddenly ignore hits by going to ground (protip - there is no such rule)... certain armies such as guard lose nothing by going to ground as an order can just put them back into a fight...

given there is no rule saying that you ignore focus fire hits by going to ground, you cannot argue RAW... there is not RAW saying that....

You are focus firing on the MODELS that have a certain cover save... you roll to hit. You HIT those models. The opponent then goes to ground to improve their cover save... that's at the point where the model is making saves... they make saves as required of them, at whatever their best save is...

that's it...

so if you want to argue RAW it goes in this order:

I'm shooting at those models in the forest
I hit those models
I wound those models
These models go to ground to improve their save
These models make saves
Failed saves die

I fail to see any possible way it goes in this order:

I shoot those models in the forest
I go to ground, so now they don't have the same cover save so you can't shoot them at all

show me a page number where it says this and I'll agree with you.

[Frosty the Pirate]

I found the page, it's buried under the Go To Ground as an exception to the rule. Your very much right.

Pg 19, Second Paragraph, left column

Note that you work out which models in the target unit can have wound allocated to them at the time the focus fire is declared. If the unit chooses to go to ground, this will not alter which models can have wound allocated to them even through their cover save has changed.