Post by thesanityassassin on Sept 23, 2013 22:32:16 GMT -5
So after both using grav guns to great effect in the tournament, and seeing them used to similar great effect by others, I'm rather sold on them being a huge part of any new Space Marine list. The question is, how much Grav do you take an what platforms do you take it on? There are basically 3 options outside of the seemingly pointless Grav pistol, those being foot marines of any sort, bikers, and Centurions. So what are the pros and cons of each?
Tac Marines: The biggest pros here seem to be that they are relatively cheap, can take Grav at 5 man with a combi on the Sergeant, and can go in a drop pod. They also score for any marine build. On the other hand, the Salvo rules severely limit the use of the weapon on a non-Relentless platform, and can cause you a lot of trouble if your pod scatters out of range. Even at its longest range, it's shorter ranged than the standard bolter, so may often be out of range if you're locked in cover, and will certainly be out of range most times if moving on foot. You're also limted to one in the squad. If you're desperate for more grav, I suppose they're an option, but generally I'd stick with any of the other special weapons first.
Sternguard are similar, in that their status as Infantry limits the use of Grav for them. Sure they can take two, but against anything but Terminators their special ammo is just as good or better. Combi-Grav is an option, but again, I think if we're seeing combi-anything it will be meltas to tank-hunt out of a drop pod. I'd leave them at home here.
A command squad can in fact take 5 of them if you want, or 4 with a FNP granting Apothecary (I'm assuming Apothecaries still can't take wargear options). This is somewhat reasonable, especially if you pair them with a character with the Salvo bolter, but this is again limited by range and mobility unless you take a librarian and get really lucky with the Biomancy table. Seemingly the best option on foot, but not something I'd recommend.
On Bikes however, a command squad with 4 or 5 grav guns becomes absurd. Add in Storm Shields or an Apothecary if you're concerned about staying alive and you have foolish gunboat of a unit, with a ton of damage potential, survivability and mobility. This will likely become a core unit in my White Scars list.
Basic Bikers are also a great choice, as their speed and Relentless nature bypasses the Grav weapon's biggest weaknesses of range and Salvo weapon type. Expect to see a lot of bike units equipped this way, often with a sergeant with a combi-grav for alpha-strike ability. I'm still not certain what percentage of my biker units to equip this way...I still love having one with Flamers for clearing light infantry out of terrain, and Meltas are always handy on a fast platform, but I am starting to think 3 grav units and one flamer unit will become standard for my bikes, backed up with some Melta armed Attack bikes or Speeders. Each bike also has twin-linked bolters for when the grav rules would turn against you. They can also become scoring units with the addition of a Chapter Master, Captain or Khan on a bike at HQ. Khan can also bring them Scout and Hit and Run to maximize their ability to do damage consistently at range.
Devastator centurions are the last option, and best in terms of pure damage output. Guaranteed 5 shots each a turn due to Slow and Purposeful, backed up with hurricane bolters, and able to re-roll to wound with the Grav Amps, they do a foolish amount of damage, and can even function against hordes. The one weakness for them is range, as they only have 24" to work with, and are stuck on foot unless you buy them a Land Raider to ride in. They are also quite expensive once upgraded. Used properly these guys have the highest damage output, especially against vehicles, and are very survivable against anything but S10 ap2 weapons, of which there aren't a ton, and what does exist can likely be targeted for removal by the rest of the marine list. In terms of anchoring a point, these guys are epic. The weaknesses as they are are cost, lack of overwatch/close combat ability, and the fact that they can never score. Not that I particularly consider them vulnerable, but they do have to watch out for being tied up by fearless squads of gribblies in combat, or having big monstrous creatures with low/no armour and a good invul save charging them. Smash attacks would end their day quickly. In terms of damage output in a vacuum and fear factor, these guys are #1 for sure, and I don't know why you'd take them with anything other than grav. I see them as a very solid addition to a lot of Space Marine builds, though I'm not sure if I'd go so far to call them a must have. They also compete in a Heavy Support slot with a lot of decent options.
And the end of the day, and I'm sure the White Scars player in me has a lot to say about this, I really do like bikes as a delivery system best, so long as you have unlocked them as troops. As it stands, I can get two scoring squads of them for only a tiny bit more than a base squad of 3 Centurions, and as my list building philosophy stands, if you can get it in a scoring body, do it that way. This is not at all saying that the Centurion option is a bad one....it is certainly not, and is in fact the best option for many builds. Basic infantry marines on the other hand, I would leave the grav at home. Too many other good weapon options that are better suited to foot troops.
Also, some blatant wishlisting on my part for the White Scars supplement: Grav Cannon attack bikes. If such a thing existed, and you could stick it in a bike squad....man that would make me happy.
Anyway, to wrap it up, as for the question of "how much" grav do you take, I look at it this way. You want some for sure. Decide on bikes or centurions. If you take bikers, you're going to need to cover your anti-tank elsewhere, as they are not reliable dealing with armour. Centurions on the other hand you can count on as a reliable anti-armour unit thanks to their grav amps. Then make sure your bases are covered....don't sell yourself short on anti-horde or anti-vehicle. Once that is covered, if you have any more space, load up....they are that good.
Tac Marines: The biggest pros here seem to be that they are relatively cheap, can take Grav at 5 man with a combi on the Sergeant, and can go in a drop pod. They also score for any marine build. On the other hand, the Salvo rules severely limit the use of the weapon on a non-Relentless platform, and can cause you a lot of trouble if your pod scatters out of range. Even at its longest range, it's shorter ranged than the standard bolter, so may often be out of range if you're locked in cover, and will certainly be out of range most times if moving on foot. You're also limted to one in the squad. If you're desperate for more grav, I suppose they're an option, but generally I'd stick with any of the other special weapons first.
Sternguard are similar, in that their status as Infantry limits the use of Grav for them. Sure they can take two, but against anything but Terminators their special ammo is just as good or better. Combi-Grav is an option, but again, I think if we're seeing combi-anything it will be meltas to tank-hunt out of a drop pod. I'd leave them at home here.
A command squad can in fact take 5 of them if you want, or 4 with a FNP granting Apothecary (I'm assuming Apothecaries still can't take wargear options). This is somewhat reasonable, especially if you pair them with a character with the Salvo bolter, but this is again limited by range and mobility unless you take a librarian and get really lucky with the Biomancy table. Seemingly the best option on foot, but not something I'd recommend.
On Bikes however, a command squad with 4 or 5 grav guns becomes absurd. Add in Storm Shields or an Apothecary if you're concerned about staying alive and you have foolish gunboat of a unit, with a ton of damage potential, survivability and mobility. This will likely become a core unit in my White Scars list.
Basic Bikers are also a great choice, as their speed and Relentless nature bypasses the Grav weapon's biggest weaknesses of range and Salvo weapon type. Expect to see a lot of bike units equipped this way, often with a sergeant with a combi-grav for alpha-strike ability. I'm still not certain what percentage of my biker units to equip this way...I still love having one with Flamers for clearing light infantry out of terrain, and Meltas are always handy on a fast platform, but I am starting to think 3 grav units and one flamer unit will become standard for my bikes, backed up with some Melta armed Attack bikes or Speeders. Each bike also has twin-linked bolters for when the grav rules would turn against you. They can also become scoring units with the addition of a Chapter Master, Captain or Khan on a bike at HQ. Khan can also bring them Scout and Hit and Run to maximize their ability to do damage consistently at range.
Devastator centurions are the last option, and best in terms of pure damage output. Guaranteed 5 shots each a turn due to Slow and Purposeful, backed up with hurricane bolters, and able to re-roll to wound with the Grav Amps, they do a foolish amount of damage, and can even function against hordes. The one weakness for them is range, as they only have 24" to work with, and are stuck on foot unless you buy them a Land Raider to ride in. They are also quite expensive once upgraded. Used properly these guys have the highest damage output, especially against vehicles, and are very survivable against anything but S10 ap2 weapons, of which there aren't a ton, and what does exist can likely be targeted for removal by the rest of the marine list. In terms of anchoring a point, these guys are epic. The weaknesses as they are are cost, lack of overwatch/close combat ability, and the fact that they can never score. Not that I particularly consider them vulnerable, but they do have to watch out for being tied up by fearless squads of gribblies in combat, or having big monstrous creatures with low/no armour and a good invul save charging them. Smash attacks would end their day quickly. In terms of damage output in a vacuum and fear factor, these guys are #1 for sure, and I don't know why you'd take them with anything other than grav. I see them as a very solid addition to a lot of Space Marine builds, though I'm not sure if I'd go so far to call them a must have. They also compete in a Heavy Support slot with a lot of decent options.
And the end of the day, and I'm sure the White Scars player in me has a lot to say about this, I really do like bikes as a delivery system best, so long as you have unlocked them as troops. As it stands, I can get two scoring squads of them for only a tiny bit more than a base squad of 3 Centurions, and as my list building philosophy stands, if you can get it in a scoring body, do it that way. This is not at all saying that the Centurion option is a bad one....it is certainly not, and is in fact the best option for many builds. Basic infantry marines on the other hand, I would leave the grav at home. Too many other good weapon options that are better suited to foot troops.
Also, some blatant wishlisting on my part for the White Scars supplement: Grav Cannon attack bikes. If such a thing existed, and you could stick it in a bike squad....man that would make me happy.
Anyway, to wrap it up, as for the question of "how much" grav do you take, I look at it this way. You want some for sure. Decide on bikes or centurions. If you take bikers, you're going to need to cover your anti-tank elsewhere, as they are not reliable dealing with armour. Centurions on the other hand you can count on as a reliable anti-armour unit thanks to their grav amps. Then make sure your bases are covered....don't sell yourself short on anti-horde or anti-vehicle. Once that is covered, if you have any more space, load up....they are that good.
