Close combat in "the shooting edition"

[Jack Shrapnel]

Well here's a few thoughts bumping around inside my brain after seeing countless blog posts saying assault is dead in 40k, and we're all in the shooting edition and assault based armies cannot compete because Tau and Eldar exist.  Yes, they're out there.  Now I don't really ascribe to this position, and I do love me some assault armies.  So how do we make assault work in 40K or does it already work and we're just running into the same internet views that if everyone just repeats it over and over again it makes it true?

....and no, this doesn't have a thing to do with the potential release of my favourite army nids in a few short weeks... honest

So I saw this list today posted on 40k Daemons (yes it's CSM, but they do that there too)

"Sorcerer, ML3, bike, meltabombs, force axe, Burning Brand of Skalathrax, combi-melta, Sigil of Corruption
Sorcerer, ML3, bike, meltabombs, force axe, combi-melta
10 Cultists, flamer
5 Chaos Space Marines, plasmagun, Rhino, havoc launcher
5 Chaos Space Marines, plasmagun, Rhino, havoc launcher
Heldrake, hades
Heldrake, baleflamer
5 Chaos Spawn, Mark of Nurgle
Vindicator, siege shield
Maulerfiend
Maulerfiend

Black Legion allies:
Sorcerer, ML3, bike, meltabombs, force axe, spell familiar, Last Memory of Uranthos, combi-melta, veterans of the long war
10 Cultists
5 Chaos Spawn, Mark of Nurgle

2,000 points"

It involves running the spawnstar tactic, using two groups of nurgle spawn, that when the opponent inevitably focus fires on one and whittles it down, the sorcerers jump to the other fresh spawn unit.... if they don't focus fire, well then profit!  The sorcerers roll on telepathy and biomancy looking for endurance and invisibility... so yeah it's a nasty piece of work (and immune to the whole sacrificial sergant tactic due to the multiple characters)... along with two maulerfiends hitting the lines also requiring high strength weaponry to take out... ouch...

I'm not saying that this is the be all and the end all of assault based lists, (I don't even own CSM so can't really comment on this!) but at least to me it seems to be a really strong list that has some nasty shooting for sure *cough* double drakes *cough* but is primarily based upon assault to win (as the scoring is not exactly survivable, so it cannot hold back and win a shooting game)... personally I'd even drop that Vindicator for another maulerfiend but I'm mean like that

okay so back to the topic at hand... is shooting so powerful that assault doesn't matter?

I think that a list as the one above (or an alternative fast list such as the hound heavy daemon list, or multiple FMC's) do well because they only allow your opponent limited time to deal with it before they're in assault. Especially in a tournament situation, there are going to be games where a slow assault based army (foot orks for example) just doesn't have the time to get into combat before running out of time - it's rare for such an army to be able to make it to bottom of turn 6 in a tourney!  So if your assault army doesn't get into assault, sure it's going to under perform! 

So what makes a good assault list?  Well #1 is speed.  You have to have some form of delivery, be it deep strike (for turn 3 assaults), vehicles (assault / open topped primarily due to the disembark restrictions), infiltrate, scout, or being beasts (or both of the former if you're flesh hounds!). Bloodletters are slow. Sure they're AP3 in combat, but if you have no way of getting them across the board and they're just hoofing it, they'll either not get there (time runs out) or they'll get shot enough to delay the assault another turn (since casualties come from the front after all). Daemonettes are considered the much better assault troop for daemons because of the extra run distance and fleet meaning you have the speed to make it there, even though your footslogging.

What else is important?  Well as the example list above you need to have some durability.  No one fears 20 grots charging them, but 20 termagants in tervigon synapse is a different story as fearless means they aren't going anywhere and they're likely to have poison too!  Likewise with ork boyz, T4 is pretty decent protection, but lots of models and fearless is going to be even worse to deal with.  The T6 multiple wound spawn as well are the epitome of survivability for decently low cost as are necron spyders (who trade larger squads for that all important armor save plus MC status!).  Flesh hounds have T4, 2 wounds and a daemon save.  etc. etc.  If you aren't able to live to get to the assault, you'd better at least be numerous and cheap to afford you some durability or you'll be ineffective (ie: daemonettes)

#3 is you have to be able to do your job once you get there.  Furious charge (khorne dogs, orks), rending (stealers, daemonettes), high strength or multiple attacks (spawn) or other armor ignoring (MC's) all mean that once you get into assault you actually do something meaningful.  This is why the much maligned flayed ones just don't work as a unit.  They're fairly survivable with a 4+ and reanimation protocols, infiltrate and T4 so they're going to get there - but once there they're just an Initiative 2 assault marine with no special weaponry, so will die before they swing, and once they do, nothing is high strength or ignores any saves. Celestians don't work as a unit because their act of faith is assault based (hatred) and they're just terrible at it with S3 and no way to ignore saves beyond extremely expensive upgrades and no access to an assault vehicle!

So I'll submit that the best assault armies are ones that maximize all three of these strengths: speed, durability, hitting power.  I'll further say that in a time limited setting you actually need ALL three to be effective.  Sure 180 slugga boyz are going to wreck my fire warriors once they get there.  If they're foot slogging it, there is no way that's going to happen before time runs out in a tourney in a normal situation.  60 boyz riding in battlewagons? yeah, they're going to be threatening turn two! Genestealers used to be rightly feared (and if they actually charge you, you are probably going to die) the problem is, for all their hitting power, rending, high weapon skill and initiative, they do not have the durability to make it into combat (for a normal squad size using normal deployment options, or even with outflanking because they have to stand around for a turn getting shot). Ymgarl stealers are crazy good - not because they're that much more killy (they're not really) but because of the ability to assault upon being revealed, and the ability to up their toughness for the turn they get shot at - so durability increases exponentially and they already have speed and hitting power - thus a good unit where regular stealers fall flat. (opinion subject to change very soon with new dex!)

So in building an effective assault based list there are some choices you can make that are going to counter how strong shooting is in this game (and I'm not saying shooting isn't strong - it is!).  Maximize these three strengths and you'll do MUCH better.  TH/SS termies wreck face in combat and are the epitome of durable - five of them walking across the board sucks even with 2+/3++ they won't get where their going quick enough - throw them in a landraider and watch out! walking paladins in hammer and anvil vs. imperial guard - who cares? outflanking paladins with draigo? yeah, so not fun... had that experience myself!
 
An additional note is to ensure that enough terrain coverage is on the board! There needs to be LOS blocking terrain, the game is balanced around this.... I know that sometimes things get sparse during tournies - we're trying to rectify that, but there's only so much terrain available... but for your friendly games, get some terrain on the board and suddenly things shift to a much more tactical and balanced game where it doesn't become just about who brought the most guns.

And an additional, additonal note with your list building is to ensure MULTIPLE threats.  Assault armies work because it's not centered around one death star rolling your opponent - that doesn't work... there's only so many assault phases of the game, and you're likely only to charge a few times per game (you have to get into position, fight the assault until you finally win, re-assault in your turn AND time doesn't have to run out). Going again to the list example above - one spawn unit? shoot it dead! Two with character support AND two maulerfiends? yikes!

So anyways, that's my two cents on the topic... what are your thoughts???

[Khalai]

Loving this assessment. Speed really is the key. Having things not be threatening until T4 is way too late in the game. And the other thing is present targets. If you want to be an assault army your supporting units should be advancing as well, even if they aren't assaulting. Those bolter marines? Keep advancing them to rapid fire in support of assault. Multiple targets forces your opponent to pick and choose what they can deal with making it more likely the unit you want makes it where you want it to. And if you lose a key unit, everything else you might want is in place to change your plan.

[voodoo]

Assault isn’t dead, you just have to think more about it to make sure it’ll work. Referring to the list above, I’d definitely get some dirge caster on those rhinos, eliminating overwatch within 6” of the tank for 5 points is the most worthwhile vehicle upgrade chaos forces can take.

In making a “competitive” assault list it’s like anything else, properly supported it can be a nightmare to face, like above, the drakes are insanely good and having them will make your opponent stretch their lines out a bit to avoid the green flame spatters raining from the skies. I’d personally run 2 flamers but that’s just my preference as I feel it’s the more useful weapon. The eldar & tau defense to assaults is the castle formation which is easily countered/threatened by template weapons.

Long story short, any list is only as good as the synergy you can create between units. Taking from the example above, the maulerfiends will either draw fire from your spawnstars or barrel into the enemy lines and crush them. The drakes will also draw fire because they can and most likely will remove at least half an infantry unit per turn. The vindicator will soften up hard targets and be yet another target priority check vs the fast durable ground units. Assault ONLY armies are a relic of the pre-overwatch 40k rules but having a properly supported assault focused army? Completely viable.

[Jack Shrapnel]

The cannon drake + flamer drake combo can be crazy good, as often one flamer drake is sufficient for ground targets, while that cannon drake is handy vs. AV12 fliers that actually threaten the drake (whereas the flamer can't touch them and competent placement (ie: aiming for the rear armor of the drakes) keeps the vector strikes away too... also the autocannon can pop open a transport so the baleflamer can cook the contents!

again, just what I've seen things change to online with list building - where everyone started with double baleflamer, as codex releases have occurred it has often changed to the one of each combo...

however that's a helldrake tactica...lol... not an assault one... so I should just shut up now and stop dragging my own thread off topic!

Assault only armies not viable? challenge accepted

[Hizack]

I recently saw what I thought could be a very solid ork assault army. It had two groups of nob bikers with warbosses on bikes, it had ard boys in a battle wagon and some boys in trukks with lootas in the backfield. It looked fast and quite good.

I don't think assault is dead, if you play the army right you will crump fools with it. I think people are of the same mindset online as when 6th first dropped and everyone said vehicles were dead. They clearly aren't, as we've shown in our local meta. I want an assault army, as some may have noticed me sort of half building with my space marines and interest in the Carcharodons. I think it can work but you just have to build and play properly to get results.

[thesanityassassin]

Neither of my armies are exactly assault focused, but both certainly have an assault presence in one way or another, and I really think it's a vital part of a complete build. It lets you apply pressure in a position of your choice that forces a commitment from your opponent to either engage more or less on your terms or else maneuver away from your assault troops and end up somewhere that is advantageous for your other troops or at least detrimental to his own. The Avatar in my Eldar army works very well in this sense....most things will melt against him in combat, meaning he is either munching a unit or else pushin the enemy to the board edges where I can then use my mobility to engage half the enemy army with the majority of my own, In the rare case that the enemy has something that WANTS to fight him, lie Skarbrand or the Swarmlord, I can at least attempt to use his positioning to draw the big nasty somewhere of my choosing. Worst case scenario he gets shot to death, but honestly he takes a lot of killing, and if he draws enough fire for a turn or two that is often enough time for my shooting to eliminate key enemy units and tip a shooting war in my favour.

With the Scars, it's a huge part of my strategy, and even though they are certainly not an assault only army, almost every unit I have is assault capable, which opens up a lot of possiblities tactically. The ability of a single unit to shoot and charge effectively massively increases their damage potential on any given turn, and makes it much more likely they'll finish off their chosen target. The more phases any given unit can have an impact in, the more successful it is most times. This is one of the reasons that Marine bikers are so good, as they bring plus-level abilities to all 3 phases of the game.

I think an all assault army can work in the right situation, like Shannon's Ork list, but in my opinion assault is best when the assaulting unit can be viable even when not actively fighting, be it through shooting (even the Avatar is a shooting threat with a fast shot melta at BS10), board control through movement or even just presenting a strong enough target profile to draw attention away from your real killers.

[Jack Shrapnel]

I will point out my personal opinion that balanced lists are best... The ork list was an example how an assault only list could actually still be dangerous and competitive, to be an example... Another would be my khorne daemon list that only had three templates as its sole shooting and still won most of its games...

I agree completely that having a unit contribute in all phases is the ultimate goal...

[voodoo]

Nov 15, 2013 7:20:36 GMT -5 thesanityassassin said:

Neither of my armies are exactly assault focused, but both certainly have an assault presence in one way or another, and I really think it's a vital part of a complete build. It lets you apply pressure in a position of your choice that forces a commitment from your opponent to either engage more or less on your terms or else maneuver away from your assault troops and end up somewhere that is advantageous for your other troops or at least detrimental to his own.

The more phases any given unit can have an impact in, the more successful it is most times.

A big +1 to these. It's the thing I look for most when selecting units. Yes, the Ork list Shannon posted has the potential to steamroll the majority of castle lists out there but it would fall completely useless vs. other lists (hence my statement about an all assault army being a relic).

This all comes back to the topic that 6th is about balance, a belief I'm behind 100%. Having a really well rounded force able to handle (in some fashion) any situation that arises is in my opinion the way to go.

[Jack Shrapnel]

My khorne list qualifies as all assault (three templates in the whole army, one flamer and two that grant grenades, zero anti-flier). It does extremely well vs. a variety of lists and a variety of players. An all assault army can work and it is not a relic. Check out some slaanesh daemon lists out there - close to zero shooting (there's only one shooting option for slaanesh and it's 12" and costs a greater gift), still very capable of doing extremely well in an all comers environment.

not all armies can pull off an all assault army, but orks, tyranids and daemons are certainly all very capable of making this work (and in the case of nurgle, slaanesh and khorne daemons they don't have much choice in the matter!)