Burning chariot of Tzeentch

[Jack Shrapnel]

not that I own any myself, but this was interesting from a Faeit 212 comment section in a thread which was supposed to be a Q&A with an anonymous GW staffer... just wondering what people's thoughts were about this issue (which people just may not care about unless they play Tzeentch daemons and don't actually want to run daemon princes in heavy!)


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Jagged Red LinesNovember 15, 2013 at 1:01 AM

Can the burning chariot move and shoot in the same turn. Currently, without the relentless rule, it cannot.
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Konrad CurzeNovember 15, 2013 at 7:37 AM

Vehicles

Type (pg. 70 of the rulebook): "The different types of vehicles are: Chariot, Fast, Flyer, Heavy, Hover, Open-topped, Skimmer, Tank, Transport and Walker."

Moving and Shooting with Vehicles (pg. 71): "Vehicles always have the Relentless special rule."

Relentless (pg. 41): "Relentless models can shoot with Heavy, Salvo, or Ordnance weapons, counting as stationary, even if they moved in the previous movement phase. They are allowed to charge in the same turn they fire Heavy, Ordnance, Rapid Fire or Salvo Weapons."

Burning Chariot Unit Type (pg. 40 of the Chaos Daemons 6th Ed. Codex): "Exalted Flamer is Infantry (Character). Burning Chariot is a Vehicle (Chariot, Fast, Open-Topped, Skimmer).

Shooting with Fast Vehicles (pg. 83 of the rulebook): "Fast vehicles that moved at Combat Speed in the preceding Movement phase can fire all of their weapons, just like other types of vehicles that have remained Stationary. Fast vehicles that moved at Cruising Speed can fire up to two weapons using their full Ballistic Skill - other weapons can only make Snap Shots."

The controversy isn't that Chariots aren't Relentless (they are), it's that people believe that the Exalted Flamer cannot shoot, because he's a passenger and has the type Character. However, among the Burning Chariot's types, Transport is not listed, thus we can make the case that as long as it moves at Combat Speed it may fire all of it's weapons and is not subject to the rules listed on Fire Points for Transports (pg. 78; "Models firing out of vehicles that moved at Combat Speed count as having moved that turn"). These weapons would be fired from any point on the hull (as stated in the Open-topped vehicle rules).

The reason the Exalted Flamer, and a Herald of Tzeentch as well, have Character is for the Sweep Attack rule (pg. 82): "If the Chariot is a Skimmer, the rider can make Sweep Attacks... The rider can make a Sweep Atack each turn in the Movement phase... each hit is resolved at the rider's Strength, plus any Strength bonuses, AP value and special abilities from melee weapons."

I hope this clarifies everything for you
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[Frosty the Pirate]

Ahem... Since I literally have no idea what this debate is about... Can I get the english version of this?

IE: Do I have to worry about a Chariot driving up to me and burning my face off?

[LizardTau]

Im not 100% sure if he is arguing for them using it or not since he says they count as moving. But im pretty sure here we play that u can use it if u move

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[Jack Shrapnel]

The debate is because the burning chariot of tzeentch has it's weaponry listed under the rider in the entry in the codex (even though it's not a transport, the exalted flamer cannot disembark, and you actually lose the weapons if you put a herald on it, so it's only got these weapons if it doesn't carry a character) that means that because the driver doesn't have relentless that technically according to the rules because they're heavy weapons (a flame template and a D3 shot lascannon) that not only can the chariot not fire both weapons (because they're listed under the exalted flamer on the chariot) but that the chariot cannot move and shoot.

GW still hasn't given an FAQ for the daemon book which answers this mystery... but basically if you RAW (and make a couple assumptions) the fast skimmer heavy support which is an open topped chariot with two weapons cannot fire them both, and cannot fire either if it moves.

(oh, and in the white dwarf battle report it moved and shot just fine - but people say "they get rules wrong all the time!" to dismiss this)

[voodoo]

Somebody call the waaaaaaambulance, the internets is up in arms again. As horrid as it sounds to get shot by it, it's kinda bootleg to disallow it in this instance.

[Jack Shrapnel]

well sadly enough for GW (and it's a cool kit) because people said it couldn't move and shoot, and people didn't want to risk bringing these to a tournament and getting ruled against (ie: by the first guy they beat with it) people aren't even TRYING this thing.. I don't think it's that great, but it's fairly inexpensive point wise and has some anti-tank fire - which long range daemons are quite lacking in.

the thing is, its an AV10 open topped chariot... so it's not what you'd call survivable... less than a speeder, for double the points, so the ONLY way you'd even use up a precious heavy slot would be if the gun was pretty awesome right? well it's a pretty good gun and the secondary weapon has some utility, but the thing would die immediately if it cannot grab some cover behind LOS terrain and keep moving...

my thoughts have always been that it could move and fire... but thus far it's been difficult to convince the RAW crowd of that... so does the reasoning behind the first post actually provide the rules backing to make a compelling enough argument?

[LizardTau]

Ya the chariot can do some damage. But they die so fast. I used two and one died so fast. But the second did a bunch of damage

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