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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 5, 2010 18:59:15 GMT -5
I really want this army to work... but I'm finding it difficult to get synergy.... so I'm thinking of trying something different (for me at least)...
I may attempt another try at "shooty nids"... but here's my attempt at "fighty nids"... they're good at one thing... fighting... the only shooting in the list is some transport can openers (hive guard)... otherwise it's all chewy goodness!
feel free to say "bad idea... try something else!" (realize as well short on synapse, but the synapse that's there is pretty tough, stealers don't need it, and pretty much everything is Instinctive Behaviour Feed - so will run forward an eat something if they fail anyways)
HQ:
Swarmlord
Two Tyrant Guard with Lash Whip (models in base contact I=1)
Elite:
3 hive guard
Heavy:
Brood of three Carnifex - double scything talons (reroll failed to hits)
Trygon Prime with Adrenal glands (furious charge)
Troops:
20 hormagaunts with adrenal glands and toxin sacs (poison)
7 genestealers with toxin sacs
7 genestealers with toxin sacs
7 genestealers with toxin sacs
total cost: 1847
51 models
9 KP
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 5, 2010 20:48:09 GMT -5
Hmm...not sure what to think of this one at the moment. My first feeling is "It's really freakin' small" for a close combat Nid army, but there are some big tough units.
You're really going to run into trouble on objective missions I think, as those 7 stealer units won't last long, and even outflanking, your enemy will probably be able to minimize their damage.
I know you're working with the models you have, so that's a bit limiting, but I'm wondering if there's something more efficient than the 3 Carnifex unit. I know they're nasty, but it seems like it will either fail to be effective or be massive overkill. I don't know the book that well, but can you equip them differently enough to be able to pass wounds around?
I like the Swarmlord...he's pretty vicious, and makes a "hive tyrant" look fairly useless in comparison. I think he has some abilities that I'm forgetting as well that might change how the rest of the list work.
Hive Guard are win. This is a fact as well. Just be careful to keep them nice and hidden as they'll be Target#1 for any fast mechanized army that can just kinda run away from the rest of your stuff.
Have you considered putting the Carnies in mycetic spores?
Just some thoughts. I'd like to see it played a few times before making any more judgements, because I do see the ability for the list to work.
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Post by qwertywraith on Jun 5, 2010 20:51:20 GMT -5
3 CC carnifices and no drop pods. You've played that game before and you know it doesn't work and it just gets worse when you face Meched forces, and you get hosed no matter what when you deploy via Dawn of War. (Remember your dread in your Ork list). Deep strike those carnifices and suddenly life is a lot more complicated for my opponent (especially when other units deep strike around him too).
You are giving your opponent a lot of targets for the first few rounds as you close (and that assumes a static opponent). However, as I see it the army is neatly divided into infantry targets (and 20 Hormagaunts are bolter-bait that 2 tactical squads could eliminate fairly easily over a few rounds), and anti-tank bait. This is OK, but you don't have enough targets. The fact is that T6, 3+ and no invul save is not really that hard to take down anymore (once upon a time my T6 5++ carnifex was a god-damn bullet sponge). Again though, your weakness to Mech is in you can only take down AV14 in CC and that isn't easy given how slow they move and they will generally need 6s to hit.
If you want to go CC Nids, you either need pure and complete swarming, or mycetic spores. So you need a cheap source of them, but once you get them you're golden. I think the best Nid list is combined arms with lots of deep strikers. They basically play like Daemons with more shooting (oddly) and a few footsloggers (mainly a Hive Tyrant for the bonus to reserve rolls). I also think the deepstriking list is more fun. Right now you just kind of line your guys up in your zone as far forward as you can muster, and move straight ahead. I think you'd start having fun as well as being more competitive if you were using mycetic spores in addition to native deep strikers like Trygons, Lictors, etc.
The worst thing about Nids right now is that Harpies, Tyrannofexes, and mycetic spores are all great units for Nids but have no models.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 5, 2010 21:27:32 GMT -5
Tried a list today actually with harpies, tyrannofexes, zoans in spores, hive guard, gaunts, tervigon, warriors, gargoyles... got ripped to shreds.... frankly the tyrannofexes are super pricey, and two BS3 shots are okay, but far from great.... blood angels were taking out one a turn without even sweating.... my only thoughts on squads of carnifexes was seriously that I hadn't tried it yet... and had thrown the idea out the window as it seemed too costly and not that effective.... however the things I kept putting in lists that I thought were effective just haven't been working out... my biggest disappointment has been zoans... even in pods they get pretty much one chance to take out a tank before small arms fire removes them completely... 3+ invul is nice and all, but T4 is fairly easy to wound, and I'll roll a 1/2 often enough to mean their deaths after that one shot... and let's face it... have to roll psychic test first, then roll to hit, then to pen... and that's if there's no hoods around! let's just say maybe I'm not very lucky with them, but I just haven't seen them do a whole lot... compared to their cheaper, higher toughness, longer range cousins the hive guard... sure they can't pen a raider, but I haven't been able to do that too often as it is.... tried various configurations of hive tyrant, but they all tend to get pricey quick... and for a close combat tyrant, you can't come close to one as good as the swarmlord for the points... mostly because of that invul save (and forcing opponents to reroll their invuls) which makes him alot more survivable for the points... might try fexes in pods (maybe a rework of the above with two in pods) given the swarmlords abilities for the bonus... basically the troops are all reserved... (swarmlord lets one troop reserve and gives +1 to entering)... pretty much the hormagaunts are sent running at something edible, and tie up and intercede... stealers are more for getting to objectives and trying to pick off choice targets... the swarmlord lets them reroll which side the come on... so seemed like a good match between the two units... even if I'm not too happy with the stealers this codex  so the above list is pretty much an outflank/reserve list... the only viable targets first turn are T6 monsters... this was an effort in reducing the effectiveness of small arms fire having viable targets.... and then when the small beasts come in, there's big ones close enough so the little ones aren't as much of a priority any more... or at least forces the choice.... I've tried combined arms repeatedly with pretty much no luck.... (in my mind it SHOULD work - on the table, not so much) However, your points are very well taken.... might go back to the drawing board and try a complete list off the table and see where that takes me.... |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 6, 2010 8:07:11 GMT -5
What do you think about this army shannon I have look very quick at the codex. The main idea is to close combat and kill eveyrhing lol... You use swamplord with two guard so everyone will have to shoot like crazy on him... you have a lots of warrior that when they will go in close combat with rending claws and talons will kill everything and with the tervigon you give them fell no pain and when they are in close furious charge. The two mawloc are there to deep strike and kill tank in close combat they have regeneration and glands... so here is the list... The doom is there again just to make sure that your oponent cant ignore anything so he will become crazy he needs to shoot on everything... but im not a nids player so just let me know what you think
HQ
Swamplord 280
2 Hive guard 120
total 400
Tervigon Cataclysm/onslaught 190
Troops
9 Warrior 180
Rending claws 0
Total 180
9 Warrior 180
Rending claws 0
Total 180
9 Warrior 180
Rending claws 0
Total 180
9 Warrior 180
Rending claws 0
Total 180
Elites
Doom Lord 90
Spore 40
Total 130
Heavy
Mawloc/Regeneration/Glands 205
Mawloc/Regeneration/Glands 205
Total 1850
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Post by thesanityassassin on Jun 6, 2010 8:38:45 GMT -5
The problem with big units of Warriors is that they are no longer immune to instant death. A single S8 template starts removing A LOT of points of warriors.
And the Mawloc, while cool, just doesn't stand up to the Trygon points wise. Its trick is fun, but not that reliable, and it kind of sucks once its on the board.
I think the Troops Tervigons are a good idea though, a T6 monster that can score gives you something to sit on an objective and spawn gaunts, while pitching other things forward.
I'm really not going to hide my disdain for the new codex...I'm also having a hard time finding things that work, so don't think that it's you at all Shannon!
Big hordes of Gargoyles I've heard are good as well, the true poison is REALLY nice.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 6, 2010 9:02:02 GMT -5
I know this comment is a little late but - Hey I loved my dread in dawn of war! ;D mawlocs - have tried them... wanted to love them... bought the model... made it... painted it... a dozen games later hate him... trick is occasionally good... oh wait... it worked a grand total of once (killed anything decent points)... and still didn't affect the game that much.... I really do love the model... it's a shame I'm gonna break it to make a Trygon.... but it's just far superior.... I think warriors could work, but from my games thus far, they're decent shooters (and might make a basis for a shooty army) but vulnerable to power fists, thunder hammers, and high strength templates... suddenly you're picking up models that cost alot.... I've tried similar lists (although not that many warriors, so truly I don't know what they're capable of beyond a group of 5 or so with a prime) but more mid to small sized bugs... there's no decent anti-tank... and everyone's meching up these days (why wouldn't they - it just works!)... so I can't go with no ranged anti-tank or I'm in trouble... that many warriors may be enough to pull out a win though... I'll have to consider that idea and maybe playtest... the thought of dropping another $200 or so on that many warriors though, gotta say is not really that attractive an option! ($40 for 3 and I'd have to buy I think around 24 more to make that list!  ) I've done the one tervigon as troop... problem is, he can spit out 3 gaunts and be done for the game... and they're gaunts.... an easy kill point, and die to anything stronger than a stiff breeze.... I've seen the 3 tervigon troop lists before... and they can probably spit out over 100 gaunts if lucky.... not sure if that'd be effective, or just annoying.... I'll try to tweak this outflank list, make a drop spore list, an endless swarm, and maybe another try at shooty nids.... back to the playtesting!  |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 6, 2010 9:19:12 GMT -5
I agree that S8 template are good against warrior but not many list have a huge amount of S8 template. I agree also that the trygon is way better then mawloc but can you deep strike with the trygon because whats good about the mawloc is you deep strike just beside tank and you go for tank you just dont care about troops... with regeneration you will survive and kill the LR or the leman russ... anyways thats my opinion... just try to help you Shannon because thats frustrating when you have an army that you can play anymore because you get massacre everytimes and its not because you are a bad player.
Also like I said to Shannon yesterday there is a way that nids are so powerful because I want to Montreal in a local store there everybody was laughing at me when I said nids sucks because there they win everything and nobody want to play against them anymore and the ard boys in Europe nids win everything (thats what they said I havent confirm)
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 6, 2010 9:44:53 GMT -5
yep, trygon can deepstrike, and it's special rule means it moves over if scatters into something bad it just moves over....
you're right though, there is a way to play it... just have to figure out how!
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 6, 2010 11:27:49 GMT -5
If trygon can DS use one of each and you would see by couple game witch one is moore effective... I have no problem playing against you if you wanna try lots of warrior and dont have the models like just use base I dont care... If your oponent have a lots of S8 template just use cover and focus on destroying these tank first with your two big guys and when you will arrive in close with the swamplord and the warrior you will kill everything... Dont forget fist and thunder armor goes last so if you kill everything they cant strike back...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 6, 2010 11:40:09 GMT -5
....yeah but my luck the heavy warrior list will be awesome.... ....then I'll just HAVE to buy them now won't I?  (sleeping on the couch here I come!)  |
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 6, 2010 11:42:03 GMT -5
lol it might not work...
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jun 6, 2010 11:55:06 GMT -5
Here's an updated attempt at the first outflanking list, including more pods....
HQ:
Swarmlord
Two Tyrant Guard with Lash Whip (models in base contact I=1)
Elite:
3 hive guard
Heavy:
Carnifex - double brainleech devourers - in spore
Carnifex - double talons - in spore
Trygon Prime with Adrenal glands (furious charge)
Troops:
5 warriors - devourers - in spore
5 warriors - deathspitters - in spore
7 genestealers
7 genestealers
total cost: 1846
37 models
10 KP
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jun 6, 2010 12:54:20 GMT -5
You can try it this saturday but personnaly still dont think it would work... troops too small thats what I think...
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Post by trevor on Jun 6, 2010 20:48:02 GMT -5
Units i'm somwhat more wary of in a game against nids are the swarm lord the stealers and the trygon. I think 1 full sqaud of steelers would be better for outflanking haveing a larg force comeing in at once rather then 1 one turn then the other the next
i like how few kill points are in the list. you could make even less by haveing 3 troop choices.
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so the above list is pretty much an outflank/reserve list... the only viable targets first turn are T6 monsters... this was an effort in reducing the effectiveness of small arms fire having viable targets.... and then when the small beasts come in, there's big ones close enough so the little ones aren't as much of a priority any more... or at least forces the choice....
)
(sleeping on the couch here I come!)
