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Post by stonecutter on Sept 22, 2010 7:12:53 GMT -5
I really hope you guys won't start to change rules and ban some stuff.... it's part of the game you have to dealt with it.... can you imagine if you ban all lvl 6 spell when you will go to lets say Toronto or Mtl for tornament they will use it... There is no problem creating our own house rules for our Thursday night gaming since the aim is somewhat different from a big tournie. Our goal on Thursday is to have fun and while we don't want to stray too far from the main rules, if there are things in the game that are really killing the fun, then it only makes sense to ensure that our goal, to have fun, is achieved by adapting a couple restrictions. My preference would be for everyone to display some restraint - I don't even attempt killer spells myself if I think it will untowardly affect the overall game. At this point, I don't think we need any house rules as everyone is pretty reasonable when it comes to such things but we'll see how things progress as we get further into 8th edition. |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 22, 2010 7:19:29 GMT -5
actually house ruling is pretty common in warhammer fantasy as far as I know, due in part to the fact that GW has had a really terrible track record with getting decent game balance.... people want to still play the game and have fun... that hardcore competitive stuff has never flown very far around here, and is basically limited to tournaments... and even then, most people don't go crazy with the overpowered stuff.... that's more for Ard Boyz....
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Post by danydaigle24 on Sept 22, 2010 8:12:53 GMT -5
Ive played a couple game with new rules so far and I had a lot more fun then previous edition... I had some hard spell cast on me and I really dont think its too strong... I think shooting phase is way cheesier.... Warmachine are crazy and what about Dark elves crossbows shooting on two rank.... I know Frank and Shannon you guys are the specialist in Fantasy but I just hope we wont start changing rules because everyone can complain about any rules... What about if someone like a chaos players dont like that cannon dont need to guess anymore because all his chaos knight always die on 1st turn are we gonna change that too....
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Post by usscott on Sept 22, 2010 8:13:31 GMT -5
i think the best and much need house rule is how to do tran more for speed than any thing
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 22, 2010 9:47:15 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is looking at actually changing the rules... we've got 8th and if we plan to play, we have to get used to it... some of us really like 8th, so it would be not very fair to them to change the rules of 8th that they like... and it's pretty subjective as to what people like and what they don't - I for example really dislike that warmachines don't have to guess (even though one of my armies is dwarfs and it boosts their power significantly) as it took away a level of skill that was required for their use.
If you can be on someone so quick (as Scott said) you have to be able to deal with that now... avoidance usually cannot work for very long at all... warriors of chaos like that... wood elves don't...
my main point in all of this thread of logic is to look at what 8th has done to the game, good and bad... because that's the animal we're stuck with for the next several years...
I'd really encourage those who really like aspects of 8th ed. to post what they like too!
I like that it is being encouraged to take more infantry blocks... always wanted to run a heavy infantry dwarf army, and now I can without auto-losing!
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Post by justice7ca on Sept 22, 2010 13:49:16 GMT -5
I also wouldn't like to see such drastic house-rules such as removing all 6th Level Spells. If there truly is an imbalance with them, then I'd recommend tweaking how they work, or some other mechanic rather than throwing them away completely.
If the system truly is broken, an appeal to GW is probably the best course of action, for some Errata to be generated to fix any problems with 8th.
To me, the game seems and feels very broken, as it was in 7th Edition. The same problems remain, a few were fixed but some new ones had crept in as well.
Hopefully 9th Edition (whenever we see that) will fix these things.. but for now we're in 8th Land.
If you do get a consensus about 6th Level Spells being banned, then I would support it. Since from what I can tell the idea of banning these spells is split, I wouldn't recommend it.
I'll try to make my way back out next week for some more 8th, been taking a bit of a hiatus due to work/life busyness.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 22, 2010 15:24:15 GMT -5
re: banning 6th level spells....
we were just talking... no one was saying that is definitely going to happen around here... Frank had mentioned it due to the game-changing nature of the spells while we were talking about how over the top they were....
don't want to give anyone the impression that was something decided or anything..... just talking is all....
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Post by fritzthedwarf on Sept 22, 2010 16:44:38 GMT -5
And my comment about power scrolls being banned in some European tournaments was not meant to imply that they should be banned here. This was just a discussion about early impressions of 8th ed magic.
I also like things such as dwarf warriors and great weapons being more effective with step-up, and the change to charging that might allow dwarfs a chance to charge. I'm glad that archers/shooters can fire in 2 ranks (more for archers). I like that a stone thrower can fire from behind friendly troops.
On the other hand I preferred the guess range and greater limitation in numbers of war machines. I don't have enough experience with 8th to be sure of the impact of the magic phase - particularly the powerful spells cast with IF. That said these spells seem over the top. I'm not a fan of overpowered anything, whether gunline or magic.
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Sept 28, 2010 9:40:10 GMT -5
.... an interesting question I had after my third game at King-Con.... the scenario had a diminished magic qualifier with no IF and no miscasts... if the magic that is most complained about is the "throw all my dice to IF the big one" type what would happen if there was no IF.... but still miscasts? how would that change the game / magic imbalance??? what if you could always save that scroll for the big one (well once anyways)....  ? |
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 27, 2011 6:55:01 GMT -5
So rather than start a whole new thread about this, I thought I'd do a little threadomancy and Invocation of Nehek this one...
It's been four months since we had this discussion... yet Tommy and I were sitting around last night still having this conversation... actually me trying to convince him that the game was still fun and that 8th was not messing up the game totally (which is a switch from our earlier positions, where he was the one trying to convince me!)
He brought up some very interesting points (which he'll probably share himself) regarding the change in the feel of the game being less tactical anymore...
We've tried magic caps, no caps, different sizes of games and combinations of items...
How are we feeling now?
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Post by stonecutter on Jan 27, 2011 8:56:06 GMT -5
Magic is still too powerful in the game as even minor hexes with low casting values can have a massive impact on the game. Since the ridiculous rules for terrain (i.e. 5 out of 6 pieces are "mystical") are ignored as they are simply unworkable, terrain has no impact on the game. Personally, I think this is the biggest source of the loss of tactics in fantasy as movement, guile and stealth were all possible when terrain blocked LOS and protected troops from shooting/charges. The placement of terrain was vital as it either provided a good series of protected havens to advance on your opponent or, conversely, could be used to channel them into specific areas. Along with this point, getting off the charge is nearly irrelevant. Smashing into your opponent at a full, blood curdling roar should accomplish more than a mere +1 to combat, especially since the step up and initiative rules result in loads more active combat resolution points. The randomness of charges is actually a good thing IMHO as it used to be possible to completely bone foot borne troops if you had cavalry.
Complaints aside, while I think estimating ranges was another loss to the tactical aspect of the game, being able to measure things beforehand tends to remove a lot of disagreements and that is a good thing. Also, not getting bogged down in terrain by just touching it is another improvement in 8th edition. I'll think up some more stuff later but we can discuss some more this evening.
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Post by shaner on Jan 27, 2011 9:42:20 GMT -5
I've only had a few games, but WFB has lost a lot of appeal for me. Like Frank explained, the tactics are basically gone with terrain being useless. I like the random charge, as it kind of throws in that element of the unexpected. However, the striking in initiative order (on the charge) has me a little vexed. Now, units of knights (I 3) are basically useless unless used with a massive Inf unit.
Magic, don't get me started. I have a massive Vamp army growing mould in the basement, as I can't even imagine how they would be competative in a tournament setting. I like the limitation on magic dice (random roll) but the strict limit on usage is rediculous. Why can't I roll one die to IoNehek? My opponent probably has as many dispell dice as I have power dice anyways.
Overall, the game now has the feel of the last edition of 40K. From my standpoint, the new edition of 40K is more tactical, and practical, than the new WFB version. The tactics were what drew me to WFB over 40K...now I have a creepy desire to focus on 40K for tactics and WFB for a Beer & Pretzels game.
Shaner
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Post by Jack Shrapnel on Jan 27, 2011 13:18:22 GMT -5
lol... Hey Shaner, I too have a vamp army... and and ogre and wood elf army too!
8th ed has severely limited my playable forces! (just luck of the draw I guess)
WHFB used to be the "tactical" game... now I agree, it seems less tactical than 40k which is super weird to me....
and for some reason Warmachine/hordes having over the top game ending stuff doesn't seem nearly as over the top and unbalanced as WHFB's magic... yet its the same type of dynamic - guess it just works in that system (which is far more tactical than either GW game in my opinion)
I keep telling myself to give it more time.... maybe it would help if GW would actually release some army books this edition so we can see what 8th ed will actually look like beyond the BRB... I really want this game to be fun (which it still is for the most part) AND tactical (line up and run at each other is NOT tactics!!!!)
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Post by danydaigle24 on Jan 27, 2011 15:30:03 GMT -5
Shaner I have Empire and Vamps and so far I prefer playing my vamps... Im pretty sure they can be great but they are weird to play... I think you need to field massive horde.... like so far I love my 50 ghoul... and next game Ill try 75 ghoul.... Vamps magic sucks so you have no choice to use forbidden lore (that's my opinion)...
I really like this edition so far but the only thing I found weird is that you just get +1 combat resolution for a charge... I think 7th was better on charge for sure...
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