DE vs. Nids - doesn't look good!

[redshirt2375]

Well the Blaster is now 18" (was 12"). The Blast Pistol is only 6". The Splintercannon is now 36" (was 24")
Spliterrifles are all rapidfire so 12"/24"

Lances/Disintergrators are both 36"

Oh and this list is BS4 or higher...sorry to crush that hope

[Jack Shrapnel]

lol... I seriously just want to play them to see what they can do now....

not that your previous dark eldar lists weren't good or anything (as they were pretty awesome, even with such an old book!) but with this long awaited update, I'm sure there's some pretty cool builds now!

(and more variety than raider/dark lance spam that seemed to be one of the only viable builds in the old book)

[redshirt2375]

Well just a reminder that the list I'm running is the closest equivalent to my old like that I liked.

If there's time, I can also proxy my other posted list (Baron's Skyreavers of Commorragh).

I still haven't really spent much time going through and working on lists since most of my time lately has been going through the fun process that is house-buying.

I'm hoping that once things settle down and I get some more games in with a list I'm somewhat familiar with, I'll start trying out some of the other builds I've been thinking of.

Personally, I want to avoid the Bomber-spam that is apparently the rave of the Internet right now (or so Matt has found) since I really am not a fan of the "you have to play all the new units we came up with to be the best" that the Codexes have been lately..Nids especially

[redshirt2375]

Thanks for the game Shannon...sorry it turned out that all your fears were true, especially considering how ineffectual my Big guns were the entire game.

Once again MVP has to go to my Succubus with Bloodbrides, who ate a unit of genestealers, a trygon, 2 Zoans and the cherry on top; taking out the Swarmlord when the unit was down to only 5 models ( they were the Succubus, Syren, and 3 Hydragauntlet BBs) and were at WS 1 due to his Psychic Power. Though it should be mentioned it was actually the Sybrite with his 2 warriors (all that was left of the squad) that scored the killing blow, the wyches still dished out 2 wounds.

And as Shannon mentioned, I didn't take advantage of the fact that I could have easily just flown around shooting him to pieces, but instead closed with him to a small degree (I put my vehicles within charge range, but only to take advantage of rapid fire splinter rifles with rerolls to hit)

And as most people have agreed, my Dark Eldar lists are far from being the cheesy lists I've heard about (Voidraven Bomber Spam being one of the lists mentioned), yet it still seems the Nids are going to have a hard time dealing with the Dark Eldar now.

[Jack Shrapnel]

yeah, I've gotta say, they were far worse than I thought..... first round when the dark lances did basically nothing, and I was closing in, I thought I had a chance... who knew they were actually worse in combat than even there shooting! having a 5+invul on all the vehicles, 6" less to your shooting range definitely hurt alot... plus with them moving 12 inches a turn, I still had to hit the damn things on 6's to even have a chance to open them up....

.... and he could have made them far far worse I'm sure....

I am at a loss to see what could stand up to them.... (at least in the Nid codex... I really want to see what marines will do against them)

[fritzthedwarf]

Well that is sobering. I'm also unsure what is best because nid shooting is mostly short range (shorter vs DE). Shannon, what fast moving stuff did you have and did they have a real chance to catch Randy's raiders? I mean if he had tried to stay back and shoot at first to wear you down before going in. Even podding is debatable unless using a reserve list but that might come in piecemeal although shooty units would be in range at least.

My list only has limited and short range shooting apart from barbed stranglers and the biovore. When I think of the mission deployments these don't help nids either. Dawn of war only gives DE longer to stay away from the nid army (at least my type). Spearhead is also a problem for my horde-type army. Not sure what to do.

[Jack Shrapnel]

Two trygons, hormaguants, so pretty fast stuff... and getting to him seriously wasn't the problem... that's what really surprised me.... you'd think opened top AV10 is the easiest thing in the world to get rid of (i know my Ork's feel that all the time!) but when they're moving 12 and you're hitting on 6's... and a 5+ ward... suddenly they're not fragile at all!

We talked about the game quite a bit, before, during and afterwards... Randy was seriously trying out what things did now, and he could have easily let me go first (nothing the nids have could touch him at that range), shoot my big stuff with dark lances and likely kill it.. once again my turn I have to get closer, perhaps get a couple shots off, but flickerfields would be helpful as well as cover... then his turn fly flat out over my head to the other side of the board... rinse and repeat.... he didn't want to play that way, and I'm really thankful of that... he wanted to see what would happen when we mixed it up....

I must say, it was absolutely brutal when you get close... I mean, normally if I can weather the first turn or two of shooting, my nids do fairly well once I'm engaged... I was seriously picking up full health combat monsters and squads with minimal casualties to the wytches... they ate a full squad of twelve charging genestealers who killed I think one or two models... they ate a trygon without it getting to strike (I killed one through shooting on the way in), then ate the swarmlord before he could strike (he had two wounds on him and no guard by then, but I count myself lucky that I avoided total dark lance destruction up to that point)

and I'll say it again... Randy's first turn was absolutely abysmmal shooting... he took MAYBE one wound of something... with 9 dark lances hitting on 3's wounding on 2's and Splinter Cannons which hit on 3's wound everything on 4's... if he would have even had a normal statistically speaking round of shooting, half my army would have been gone....

oh, and the army gets STRONGER as it kills things... saw that in action... and that was just one unit... like I said, he really didn't take anything that was over the top, nothing was spammed (as much as I teased him about the amount of raiders on the board)...

In a tournament against a maximized list, I'm not sure how not to get tabled.. every time....

Here are my thoughts though a day later of what I might be able to cobble together...

1) my hive guard were one of the more effective units... could reliably pen the raiders... if it wasn't for that stupid 5++... but at least cover wasn't an issue... I wouldn't leave home without these guys...

2) podding zoans.... at least were able to get in position turn two and threaten... might stop at least some of the avoidance and provide some table control... and they did wonders versus that landraider in my second game... but that's a whole other story!

3) tyrannofexes.... yeah I know, I know... I keep avoiding these guys, but I really would have liked to be able to pop a couple of those raiders first turn... they're the only ones with the range to do it... if they hit it's an auto-pen... I'd say take two though, because focus fire from dark lances, and they'd be gone... perhaps with a venomthrope or two to at least get our own form of 5++

4) templates... big templates like the stranglers... dropped on those wytches ASAP... lots of range (well for nids anyways) and a fairly reliable kill zone... I've learned the hard way to make sure to ask which raider has the wytches, and get those things walking ASAP.... the elite versions anyways... I haven't seen the troop ones!

5) tervigons... again has been rather "meh" from my previous run throughs, but then again I only have one... perhaps two is better.... mainly to give FNP to your big bugs... (gaunt pooping is really secondary I think... DE dont need MORE easy pain tokens)

MC really need more protection than ever... it is amazing how easy they are to take out now...

[fritzthedwarf]

Wow. That is a lot to think about. I will probably put the stranglethorn cannon back on my tyrant (was considering this anyways for the long range big blast). I'll have to make sure I take hive commander and use podding zoeys, outflanking stealers and outflank one of my other troop choices. I wonder if heavy venom cannons are more useful now (on tyrant, carnifex, harpy) to try to damage or keep the raider from moving - I'll have to look at them again.

[redshirt2375]

Fighting Dark Eldar is really all about target priority...but then again that's the same with any army.

Getting my wyches on foot so they can be shot is something everyone usually tries to do (but I tend to protect those units the best for that very reason). But like with your Bug list, everything in my army is a threat (even more so now with the 4+ poison shooting) so picking your targets is more difficult.

One things I have yet to try out again is the webway army. It would be a lot more models in the army since I'm saving all the points I was paying for the upgraded raiders, plus it means that when those units do come on the board they are likely to be on your that turn and you have zero chance to shoot at them before hand.

I think that will likely be one of the common-builds you will see especially since you can take a fairly cheap unit to use as a portal delivery system.

I also have yet to personally try out the Flyer-Missile-Spam list that I've read about on other forums which a lot of people seem to be taking. Basically for 600pts you have 3 models that can wipe a unit each first turn, or with some good rolling, take out a unit each both 1st & 2nd turn if you only fire 2 missiles a turn. And with 2 S9 Lances each, they will eat most Mech lists pretty quickly too.

I'm not likely to play that kind of list myself, but there seem to be a lot of people online talking about running those kinds of lists.

I do have to say that the new book does seem to be much more powerful overall than the old book, but I do promise to avoid the cheese like I always did

[fritzthedwarf]

Randy, my first introduction to DE was playing Tau against you in a tourney at Kingston a few years ago. All I remember (apart from getting destroyed) was your wyches getting a first turn charge if I am recalling correctly. It was nasty. How far can a raider fly (and still unload units)?

[redshirt2375]

I remember that...that was back when the Wyches had access to the combat drug roll that gave them a 12" assault. They don't have that option anymore (it was replaced with the 3d6-take highest fleet roll)

Raiders are the same as before, they can move 12" and still deploy a unit which can usually then Fleet & Assault.

I find that both Dawn of War & Spearhead deployments still allow me to 1st turn assault depending on how my opponent deploys his units and how good of a fleet roll I get (max charge would be 12+2+6+6 = 26" Max). This still means that with a decent Fleet roll I could get 1st turn assaults off on any Deployments if my opponent isn't careful and I get a good roll

[fritzthedwarf]

Yeah spearhead is something I'd have to be careful with, although my list is assaulty and my shooting would not compare favourably with yours so my army wants to get into CC quickly. With your speed it will be difficult to get the charge off on you rather than take the charge. Raveners have 6 + fleet + 12 for a range of 19-24", but hormagaunts and other CC nids with fleet are 6 + fleet + 6 giving me an 18" charge range at best. Possibly slower if the move has to go through terrain.

[redshirt2375]

Ravaners would be ideal for getting 1st turn assault, especially with Spearhead, but you just have to watch that your opponent doesn't compensate for that by just deploying further back in their deployment zone.

[fritzthedwarf]

I have raveners in almost every list I use (can't get enough of them). Ymgarl stealers seem like they could be very useful since they can charge the turn they arrive; however, even with Hive Commander on a hive Tyrant (or the Swarmlords ability) the best on turn 2 would be 3+ to arrive. That might be too late if the DE player is going to quickly go into CC, but could useful if the DE player tries to fly around and shoot for a couple turns before CC, which would depend on the list the DE player is facing and the type of list they brought.